The Jack Hopkins Show Podcast
The Jack Hopkins Show Podcast; where stories about the power of focus and resilience are revealed by the people who lived those stories
Jack Hopkins has been studying human behavior for over three-decades. He's long had a passion for having conversations with fascinating people, and getting them to share the wisdom they've acquired through years of being immersed in their area of expertise, and overcoming the challenges and obstacles that are almost always part of the equation.
The Jack Hopkins Show Podcast
Reclaiming the Airwaves: Sue Wilson on Media Monopolies, Local Journalism, and Democracy
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Have you ever wondered how media consolidation has transformed our political landscape? Join us on the Jack Hopkins Show as we unpack the profound impacts of the 1996 federal regulations that allowed corporations to seize ownership of numerous radio stations. Our special guest, Emmy-winning investigative journalist and media democracy reformer Sue Wilson, shares her wealth of knowledge on how this shift has diminished local programming and diverse viewpoints, creating a media monopoly often skewed towards right-wing agendas. Prepare to be enlightened about why reclaiming our public airwaves is vital for maintaining a democratic society.
Sue delves into the powerful influence of talk radio, revealing staggering insights like Sean Hannity’s radio audience far surpassing his TV viewership. We discuss the hurdles faced by independent voices trying to break into the media and the role of local groups in holding media accountable. From grassroots efforts to remove controversial figures to advocating for dedicated political reporting, Sue provides a roadmap for ensuring our media serves the public interest. You’ll also hear about the historical context of media regulation and the Fairness Doctrine, and how recent administrations have handled these pivotal issues.
Finally, we tackle the pressing need for media ownership legislation and the role of local journalism in a democracy. Sue recounts compelling stories, such as Jane Acree and Steve Wilson’s legal battle against Fox News, illustrating the dangers of news distortion and the lack of laws to prevent it. Discover practical steps for engaging with local media, advocating for balanced reporting, and fostering informed public discourse. Tune in for an episode brimming with actionable insights that empower you to contribute to a healthier democratic society.
The Jack Hopkins Now Newsletter https://wwwJackHopkinsNow.com
Media Democracy Reform and Local Broadcasting
Speaker 1Welcome to the Jack Hopkins Show podcast , where stories about the power of focus and resilience are revealed by the people who live those stories and now the host of the Jack Hopkins Show podcast , jack Hopkins .
Speaker 2All right , welcome to the Jack Hopkins Show . I'm your host , jack Hopkins . All right , welcome to the Jack Hopkins Show . I'm your host , jack Hopkins . Today , I have someone on that I've really been looking forward to have on , simply because she knows a great deal about something that's critically important right now with what's going on in the nation , and it's a subject that I know very little about , and I say that embarrassingly so , because it's something I realized I should know more about and that you , the listeners and the viewers , need to be informed of . So it only seemed like a logical next step then to have Sue Wilson on the Jack Hopkins Show podcast . Sue Wilson is an Emmy-winning investigative journalist and media democracy reformer . Welcome , sue .
Speaker 3Thank you for having me , jack , I appreciate it .
Speaker 2You are most welcome , so I'm just going to let you tell us what it is you do . What is a media democracy ?
Speaker 3reformer and somewhere along the way we lost that . I mean , I'm an older person now and in my young adulthood people didn't think that they were being lied to . They were probably on occasion , but along the way corporations grabbed hold of broadcast media and ensured that people not only would be lied to but that people would not be able to respond back and have any kind of a say . So I was . You know , I had a really nice broadcasting career . But at one moment after 1996 , when they really changed the rules about who could own radio stations and put them in the hands of just a very few pro-Republican companies , I knew that if we didn't do something about that at some point we would have an authoritarian president . And oh yes , that is where we were and where we still could be . So my work involves educating people about our rights in the broadcasting realm . And I talk about broadcasting only because we own it . People don't get this . Legally .
Speaker 3There is an act of Congress that says we , the people , own the public airwaves and that anybody who's running a radio station or TV station legally has to protect our interests . It's called the public interest . They've been hiding that fact from us for a very , very long time , but I'll ask people to think about it this way . So many people , especially younger people , think broadcasting . Why is broadcasting important ? Again , because we own it . We can't do anything about Elon Musk and X . We can't do anything about meta . We can't do anything about cable television . We don't own that .
Speaker 3We own the public airwaves that you go and you turn on your local TV station , you turn on your local radio stations If you can hear it , you own it , legally . You own it . And it's kind of like this If there's a fire in your neighborhood and your little house that you've owned for years is on fire , but the big mansion down the street is also on fire , what are you going to do ? Go protect that big mansion that you don't own because it's bigger and it seems like better than your house . No , you're not . You're going to protect your own home . The thing is is we forgot what we own , and so part of what I like to do every time I get to talk with people is remind people we own those local airwaves , and we have been , at Media Action Center , very , very successful in taking back portions of those local airwaves and making them serve the public , serve us , like they should .
Speaker 2And that's fascinating , and I think it delves into a topic that we don't hear discussed too much , and that is just the importance of the local airwaves . You know , we get so focused on the big monster networks , right the cable , that's so much in front of us all the time that we almost forget that there's this local machine that's functioning . So what can you add about the importance of that local broadcasting and how important it is to democracy and what we are facing right now ?
Speaker 3Well , it's good that we've got some time on your show , because this is the topic that everybody really needs to pay attention to . Jack , let's start with what happened . Okay , and older people are going to remember a time when you would switch on your radio and there would be all kinds of different programming on . You'd hear all kinds of different music . I mean , a woman like Naomi Judd could run around Nashville and hand out her music to different DJs who would play the music and all of a sudden a song would get popular . It would become a hit .
Speaker 3Well , 1996 is a seminal year . 1996 is when the federal government passed a law that said one company could own as many radio stations nationwide as it could buy and actually could license . We'll get into that in a minute . But what that did was , overnight you had in the music scene . You have a few people in Texas who decide exactly what music you get to hear on the air and what you don't .
Speaker 3And I think , more importantly at least to our democracy , they took a few shows , starting with Rush Limbaugh , and got rid of the local shows you used to have , where you and I could sit in the local studio and have this talk and everybody around us could hear it for free . They'd turn it on in their car or their home . They replaced that with these giant programs that were pro right wing , that lied a lot and that became the norm . And they're national , they're not local shows . So we lost so much with that . And then later , I think we want to talk about , you know , redoing legislation , because these are ours and we can legislate around them . But I think what's really important for people to remember and I know the older people listening to your show are going that's right . I remember when that happened All of a sudden , we went from people having a conversation like this and you and I may agree to disagree , and that's healthy , but we're able to have that discussion today . It's whatever these big shows want to ram down your throat and they're not going to let anybody else on to have any kind of a say . That's where we're getting into the brainwashing . People are literally being brainwashed by what's on this right-wing talk radio . Yes , it's nuts . And I want to give you a statistic and let me give kudos because you're doing this podcast , which is wonderful . I mean , it is the way that people can have a voice and you grow a show and you try very hard to get a big audience Right , but I mean straight up .
Unlocking the Airwaves
Speaker 3Right now .
Speaker 3Sean Hannity has an audience on the radio for free . Sixteen and a half million people listen to him every day . People tear their hair out going Fox News , fox News . Fox News is a pimple on the butt of talk radio folks . Sean Hannity gets 4 million people on his very best night on Fox News . But 16 and a half million people listen to him every single day . Swallow what he's saying . Nobody's allowed to push back Now . Jack , if iHeartMedia came to you today and said you know what , jack , we'd like to put you on all of our stations . We'd like to give you this audience of 600 radio stations locally across the country . Think you'd take that deal .
Speaker 2Yeah , locally , across the country , think you'd take that deal . Yeah , you know , I mean you are , as a person who's wanting to get the message out . Your initial reaction , anyway , is to say , oh yeah , sign me up . But let me ask you the next step . What are the what comes with that deal ?
Speaker 3Right , right , well , and of course that assumes that you get to do the show that you want to do . Right , as opposed to well , we're going to put you on the air , provided that you spin these talk right wing talking points , in which case it's like well , what's the point of doing that ? You don't want to do that , but you get . My point is that what they've done is is is they've cornered the market on information and they forced everybody off into these little bitty silos where we the domination is just amazing by virtue of talk radio . We're going to talk about TV as well , but when you really are talking , talking about localism , it really starts with talk radio , it starts with your local radio stations . And later I want to talk about actions that we have done , because we have been very successful in radio , in television , in moving the needle in local markets , with things as simple as going down and knocking at your station manager's door and saying I want a meeting . But we can get into all that .
Speaker 2Yes , yes . So let's come back for just a moment then . So let's say I was a music artist and let's go back to 1978 , right , and I've got a new album , or maybe it's just a 45 , right , I've got a single , and I go knock on doors and I go to radio stations and maybe I get the first two who say no , not interested . But if I am industrious and determined and have the grit , I can keep knocking and maybe the next five say , yeah , we like it , we'll play that . And so it's kind of like being in sales . It's the law of averages If I knock on enough doors , I'm going to get a considerable amount of people who agree to play , even though some of them don't . What you are telling me is the way it's set up now , like in Texas , for example , there's really just one door that you can knock on , and if they say no , then it's tough luck .
Speaker 3It's true , and let's put this into another perspective it used to be that , oh , let's take a large market that has maybe 25 radio stations , all right . It used to be that , you know , you'd have 25 different radio stations , radio stations which are licensed to the people who are going to broadcast on them , and that's an important distinction . Everybody likes to use the word ownership . We own the airwaves , we own those airwaves and , just like we are licensed to drive our cars on the public highways , all these radio stations , all these TV stations are licensed to broadcast over our airwaves only if they serve the public interest . So I'm going to keep repeating this but they're licensed because they're not owners , okay , but what they do is now they're able to license eight radio stations in one town , so you have a community of 25 . You could get three different companies that own the licenses to broadcast on every radio station in town , and typically all of those companies are of the same political tilt .
Speaker 2Right .
Speaker 3That's what has changed in local radio . We used to have so many opportunities to literally knock on doors and not just say I want to play radio , but hey , I'd like to do a show . I have something to say . Well , let's put you on at 11 o'clock tonight , let's see what you can do . Hey , this guy's pretty good . Let's put him on at 4 o'clock in the afternoon and see what we can really do . We can't do that anymore and we should be able to do that . We should be able to .
Speaker 2What are ? And I may be jumping ahead if I am , then put me back in sequence . But when you say and I believe you , by the way that we own the airwaves , what are some ?
Speaker 3steps that we can take , some tangible steps that we can take to leverage our ownership of the airwaves to hopefully create some changes in what's being pumped out on the airwaves . Okay , let me tell you a couple stories about what we have done right here . I live in the Sacramento media market . Okay , there was a group called the Sacramento Media Group . They were a group of citizens One , ron Cooper , ran the local community access TV outlet . But they understood our rights to our airwaves and so they put together a group and they just decided well , let's come up with a specific ask that we want of our stations . And what they decided they wanted was to get five minutes of actual political reporting during the 60 days prior to an election on our local TV news . So let me repeat that , maybe make it a little bit more understandable Turn on our local TV news . It's election time , we're getting close to an election . They didn't want just the polls this is what the polls say but rather five minutes per day on your station of actual reporting on the issues behind the elections . And so they knocked on every local station in town ABC , nbc , cbs , fox they're all affiliates , but these are locally licensed in our community and the first time they did so they got laughed out of the room . Oh , aren't they just so cute . What did they do ? They went and they wrote a report and they publicized the report and their report was very embarrassing to the management of these stations .
Speaker 3Two years later they did the same thing . They went back and made exactly the same ask same people we want five minutes per day in the 60 days prior to an election , of actual political reporting . One of the stations as I recall it was the ABC station said okay , we're going to give that to you . So they started that with and they're doing many news shows . It's not like they didn't have a new staff . It wasn't like the people are asking like , oh , we want you to do a whole new show . No , just five minutes per day . Guess what that station got rewarded their ratings went up . Their standing in the community went up .
Speaker 3Meanwhile , after , the little group wrote another paper saying well , this station said yes to us . None of the other stations said yes . They all said no , I'm not going to give you five minutes , all right . Two years later you know , every two years we have an election cycle Two years later , the same little group went knocking on the doors . This time , every TV station in town said , ok , we're going to give you the five minutes , said , okay , we're going to give you the five minutes . Now , five minutes doesn't seem like a lot , but it's the power of actually knocking on doors , getting to meetings , writing reports , sometimes embarrassing them , and getting action .
Speaker 3We did the same thing with the Clear Channel Station here in town , and this was during the Occupy Movement , and so we literally , in those days , gave us so many aspects to proof that we own the airwaves . There are what's called public files , because these stations are licensed to serve our needs , called public files , because these stations are licensed to serve our needs . They have to write all these files that show exactly what they've been doing and how they are serving our needs . One of the most important is the political public files . You're able to go in right now and find out who's advertising , how much they're paying . You might be able to find times when it's black money and you can't find out who's advertising , and that's not legal . Anyway , I'm going to go back to uh , it was about 2011 .
Speaker 3In those days , they actually kept the public files in the radio stations and tv stations themselves , so we notified clear channel on the friday , before the monday , that we were going to occupy clear channel the following monday , which was so darn much fun I can't even tell you . We just giggled the whole weekend going . Oh , this is going to be great . Hey , you know , we got there . Their doors were wide open , they had food for us , they really were trying to take good care of us and they allowed us in because it was our right to walk into a station at will and look at the public files .
Speaker 3As a result of that action , the radio stations went . You know , I don't think we , like people walking in the FCC , had been trying to get these political files put online for many , many years . But as a result of that oh , by the way , that wasn't just Sacramento , this was an Occupy movement so we had people going to stations all over the United States at the same time we sent a really big message and they responded by saying we give up , we're going to put these public files online . So all you have to do is sit on your computer and you can find out everything that we're doing inside this station . That is legally required for us to provide to you . Who owns this station ?
Speaker 2And that was achieved . I won't say that it was easy , because it took some organization , but it was fairly straightforward and simple . Am I right ? Organization , but it was fairly straightforward and simple , am I ?
Speaker 3right , it's all local and none of this . I mean , is it easy ? None of it's really easy , but this local communication stuff works . Let me tell you another thing that we have done with media action center . There was a there's a process that that I developed . I was able I used to be able to write a lot of op-eds . Once upon a time I wrote regularly for Huffington Post after .
Speaker 3Ariane Huffington sold the company . They no longer did media reporting . Now it's almost impossible for me to get published anywhere , but I was able to get an op-ed in our local Sacramento Bee about Alex Jones . Alex Jones , you know we live in an area which is very high fire danger and he was on the radio telling people these crazy stories about outer space . You know these fires are caused by this crazy stuff and somehow it had a Jewish tint to it . I don't remember .
Speaker 2A Jewish space laser .
Speaker 3Yeah , there you go . That was it . Thank you very much . Yes .
Speaker 3I managed to get a story into the Sacramento Bee about this and mentioned that our local Immaculate Heart radio station was airing the Alex Jones show . Well , people read that story and all of a sudden I get an email from somebody who's just hot . He's saying I couldn't believe that our Catholic radio station is airing this kind of ilk . So I called the bishop I know the bishop and I told him what are you thinking airing these kind of lies on a Catholic radio station ? Well , turns out that that same radio , immaculate Heart Radio , had another station in the New York City area that also was airing Alex Jones . Within a week Alex Jones was off the air in those two stations off the air in those two
Empowering Citizens for Media Accountability
Speaker 3stations .
Speaker 3From there Media Action Center , we first started trying to get people to write to the FCC to say he should be taken off the air for provoking a hoax . That didn't work . What did work was again real people knocking on the doors of their local radio stations , writing letters to their local radio stations saying this is nuts , this should not be on our air , take it off off . We took off almost every single station across the country . We took him off the air just by citizens calling up the local people . Forget about calling iHeartMedia staff . You call the local news director , your local general manager of your local station and start making noise . Man , I'll tell you we've had great success and I can talk in a minute about the FCC . But just local is what works , folks , that's what works .
Speaker 2Right and in such a critical epiphany , if you will , I think for many is that we get stuck in a rut . For example , we hear the name Alex Jones right and there are so many negative connotations to that . We hear the name Alex Jones right and there are so many negative connotations to that , and people get stuck in the idea of we need to make that show go away , shut him down . And yet , to really be able to make a difference , we don't have to shut his show down . We can just impact the number of stations that are putting his show out on the airwaves and make a huge contribution . Is that kind of the way you view this approach to dealing with people like Alex Jones ?
Speaker 3I think that there's two issues with Alex Jones . One is that , again , he's licensed to serve . The stations he's on are licensed to serve . The public interest is attacking the parents of Sandy Hook school children , who had been through the worst possible nightmare , and telling his listening audience on our airwaves that this was a hoax , that these are actors . And then those same grieving parents are then being attacked by his listeners , who believe him because what he says is the voice of Alex . It must be true . I mean , one family had to move seven times because they were so horribly attacked from place to place to place they couldn't even go back to see their son's grave site . I mean , that's what he wrought . So is that in the public interest ? Do I think that it's appropriate for him to be on any of our public airwaves ? I think not . Personally I think not , and I agree with you . But also , you know , there's one of the things we need to start advocating for is the right to respond .
Speaker 3Once upon a time in this country and I was at KCBS-TV as an intern way back in 1987 when the brass told us that the FCC had gotten rid of the Fairness Doctrine , and I was like what's the Fairness Doctrine . I didn't even know what's the Fairness Doctrine ? I didn't even know . But what it had to do with was a series of things that stations had to do to prove that they were serving the public interest , and one of them was to have shows and bring people on from different sides , so that you getctrine went away with the Reagan administration . Reagan was a media man and we can talk about when you have a media man in charge of the country and therefore in charge of the FCC . Things change and Reagan certainly changed that , and we can talk about our previous President Trump later in the same light . But just to go back again to the Alex Jones concept , if we just had a right to respond once upon a time , you couldn't go on the radio and just attack somebody personally the way he attacked those parents .
Speaker 3The FCC under Republican rule , just went . Well , they can do what they want . I'm here to say I don't think they should . I think that they do have a responsibility to us . And what if we , for instance , could go to the FCC or , better yet , go to our congressmen and get legislation ? Because we have the right to legislate this . It belongs to us . The public interest obligation is legislated . It is signed by the president of the United States . What if we got legislation that simply said we want a right to respond on all these shows ?
Speaker 3The last 10 minutes of the hour we'd like to have a right to respond Doesn't seem to be that onerous . You know how to do a podcast . I mean , if you're talking radio , you don't even need the pictures . You could have somebody who is fact-checking in the background at the end of the hour saying hi , this is Sue Wilson .
Speaker 3I just wanted to go through a few things that we've heard the past hour and let you know some facts here that would seem to be really healthy for democracy . It sure would , and I believe we can do that . I really believe we can do that . But in order to do
Media Ownership Regulation and Partisan Politics
Speaker 3that , we have to wake up . The Democrats who , for as long as I've been in this game , which is since 1998 , that's when I really saw the problems coming and by 2004 gave up my career to say we've got to do something to correct the , the problems with the information we're getting , or we're going to end up as in a fascist state , um , and the Democrats that I have talked with over the years have said we can't worry about media . We have starving children to feed , we can't worry about media , and so people like me and now this course is growing they're still really not hearing us . I just think they don't really understand that not only do they . We have the right , but they have the responsibility to take care of our rights as the owners of these airwaves .
Speaker 2I think you are dead on with your analysis . I don't know if you know this or not , but I'm a former Republican . I was a Republican for most of my life . Donald Trump and MAGA came along and I said I can no longer be part of this . And it wasn't a cutaway just from Trump . I saw what was behind Trump and how they were enabling him , and I said this no longer represents anything I believe in , and so I didn't just say okay , I guess now I'm an independent . I went hard left . I said you know what I want to identify with , the opposite of this garbage . And so I jumped in both feet in blue right . But there's an old saying you can take the boy out of the country , but you can't take the country out of the boy .
Speaker 2I still have what I consider to be some of those conservative traits in that I'm not particularly quiet on issues that I'm passionate about and I approach them fairly assertively . And that's been perhaps my biggest frustration in my new party is that , time and time again , I do not see the grit and the blood , sweat and tears being put in in the kind of fight that's warranted now , more so than at any other time , and also , as you mentioned , that tendency to just up that and kind of brush it off and I suggest that that's exactly how Trump came to power is trying to get in power again . Life , because there were too many people who laughed , chuckled all him . And here we are , and I still see evidence of some Democrats who aren't taking things seriously . So it's not necessarily a question , because I guess I already know the answer . One very powerful tool we have is our vote right . We have to look at who's in office , who's doing their job , who Republican Party , the GOP how vigorously do they fight to keep these rules from changing ?
Speaker 3It starts at the very top , jack , and I think that there is . They have been trained ever since the Fairness Doctrine went out in 1987 that the Fair Fairness Doctrine is bad . And this onslaught of talk radio and when I say onslaught , you know just for a fact check here in 2016 , when Trump was running for president , I looked at talkers , talk radio , talk audiences All right audiences , all right . In those days , there were 60 million people listening to talk radio in the United States , according to talkers . When I looked at it last , and that was about a year ago , it's grown to 135 million . Now think about those numbers . Now is some of this overlap . They have to be , but you know , I don't believe that the 60 million somehow just magically got to 135 million by virtue of everybody's watching or listening to more shows . So , and these people have now been trained in how to speak politically here's what you say . If it's the Fairness Doctrine and we all know they're very , they can be mean , they're nasty , they're tough with their talking points because they hear them day in and day out on the radio and it becomes a huge problem in terms of fighting back , a huge problem in terms of fighting back Politically . I think that there's now finally Democrats are starting to understand that media is an issue , but they still haven't managed to really take control .
Speaker 3I mean , it took Joe Biden a very long time to name his FCC commission . Okay , now this gets in the weeds . But you got to understand this . Congress passes the laws and Congress passed the law that says that it's our airways . Congress also passed the 96th Telecommunications Act which says that one radio station as of 1996 , one radio company could buy as many radio stations across the country as it could own . So we went from many , many , many owners licensing radio stations to now just a handful that licensed radio stations and put these big shows on , like Sean Hannity , and dominate the air with that kind of talk . Joe was very slow in putting his FCC together and Jessica Rosenworcel , as chair of the FCC , has done a terrific job . She's really listened to this broadcasting issue and she is actually looking at re-regulating television . We have to talk about television in Sinclair too , and also re-regulating radio , and the companies are going nuts over this . Now , if Joe Biden remains president , I have high hope that we're going to see some real movement in that area .
Speaker 3But remember earlier I talked about we had a couple of media presidents . We had Ronald Reagan , who knew full well what he was doing when he got rid of the Fairness Doctrine , but Trump administration . One of the very first things that Donald Trump did when he became president was he filled his FCC . The FCC means five commissioners Three are of the president's party , two are of the opposing party . Trump got in , he understands media , he immediately filled his commission and he put Ajit Pai in charge of that commission and Ajit Pai did his bidding All right mission and Ajit Pai did his bidding All right .
Speaker 3Now the FCC functions to make rules as to how this broader concept of serving the public interest has to work . The trouble is is that rules come in and rules come out , and rules can change . And there's a rule , no , there's a law in place . This gets in the weeds . So bear with me , you bet , but it's really important . The law .
Speaker 3Once upon a time , when broadcasting started , way back in 1920s , the law was that one owner , one station company , broadcast company , could have only three TV stations nationwide . That's it . Well then , that went from well , okay , you can have three TV stations , three radio stations , three AM stations , three FM stations . To , well , you can have seven . So the rule of seven . Seven TV stations , seven AM radio , seven FM radio by the time we got to Reagan , that was 20 . Seven AM radio , seven FM radio by the time we got to Reagan , that was 20 . You could have 20 , 20 and 20 . That law was changed and I'm sorry , I don't remember the year , but it has morphed now to where one TV broadcast group like Sinclair or Nextar , they've created what's called a national audience cap that they may reach no more than 39% of the United States viewing audience . And how do you get to that ? There's various ways . I can tell you that Sinclair , famously , is skirting those laws by virtue of creating companies , shell companies , that they actually control , and our attorney , art Ballenduck , has proven this . I can send you to the website on that , by the way . The website's suewilsonreportscom for the journalistic side of this mediaactioncenternet , for what we can do to try to repair some of these ills .
Speaker 3Okay , back to this idea of 39% . All right , now . One big station like Sinclair , big company like Sinclair , big broadcaster like Sinclair , still is only allowed to have two local TV stations . Sinclair routinely tries to buck that . Sinclair , in real life , controls as many as four stations in many towns and as many as three networks . It is flatly against the rules networks . It is flatly against the rules and we're hoping that some of these legal things that we've been working on are going to work their way through and make their way .
Speaker 3But the FCC has to work with that . The FCC . The law is , it's an act of Congress 39% is the max . And the FCC kind of went behind and made some behind closed doors deals with companies like Sinclair . It's like , well , okay , I'll look the other way . If you're running that station over there , it's not really your station , so we won't say anything about that . But the FCC's job is to make rules to ensure that that 39% cap is in place .
Speaker 3Now here's what Donald Trump's administration did . Donald Trump's administration decided that they wanted to get rid of this 39% cap , but they didn't want to go through Congress to do so . So Ajit Pai who was a stooge of Donald Trump , he ran the FCC , he was a chair he came up with a proposed rule that said we're just going to eliminate that 39% cap on our own . And it was only because of a good Republican there was three Republicans on that commission at the time . Michael O'Reilly stood up and said you know , actually I think we should get rid of that rule . But this isn't the FCC's to do . This takes an act of Congress and we have to be sure that we have that act of Congress in place . And there was no getting around it , because he was the Republican vote that two Democrats were going to absolutely vote . No , this is against the law . We make rules according to what Congress passes . If you want an act of Congress , you get one , which is what we should be doing , by the way . Right , and of course , michael O'Reilly was shortly thereafter eliminated from the FCC , thereafter eliminated from the FCC .
Speaker 3So , as we look ahead , if Biden wins , I have high hopes that some of these broadcasting issues are going to be resolved , and the more noise that we , the people , make , the more they get resolved in our favor . Okay , if we just sit back and go , I don't know what's going on , well , figure it out and start yelling . Okay , in your own local area , start shouting . But if Trump wins , it is very likely that he will put people on the FCC that , with the stroke of the pen , are just going to say no , we're going to get rid of that 39% cap , the contracts are going to be ready to sign , the lawsuits are going to be flying .
Speaker 3But you could very well see a company like Sinclair who is getting rid of local news . It is one of the biggest companies in the entire country that does TV and somehow they can't afford to do a local news show in places like Toledo Ohio . No , instead they take the local news off the air and put their now new national desk national right-wing oriented talk news program on the air , giving people the national news they want them to hear . I mean , why do people in Toledo Ohio want to know what's going on in other parts of the country ? It's really easy for people to get national news . National news is everywhere you look at your phone . You can find national sources everywhere . It's local news that's dying on the vine . It certainly is .
Speaker 2If I pause you just for a second , there's such a contrast , watch a contrast . For example , if one were to tune in to the local affiliate Fox in Kansas City , missouri , and watch that evening broadcast . It is mild , it's for the most part it's the news , with a little bit of flavor thrown in . You jump to fox news . They're not even the same animal and a lot of people that I know that used to watch the local I think it's KCTV 5 , perhaps Again , I'm not sure what the actual station number is but people who used to watch that are now watching Fox News with Sean Hannity , laura Ingram and thinking that they're still watching the news when they're getting anything but the news .
Speaker 2So I just wanted to say that I've seen that . I've seen people make that transition and not realize they're no longer getting news . They think they're still getting news news . They think they're still getting news and the most critical aspect of still thinking that is that they also think it's true Because especially you get into that 55 and older group . I'll be 60 in a couple of years , so I remember Walter Cronkite in the evening and how he presented news and how people at one time he was the most trusted man in the United States . People tuned in because they believed they were being told the truth and unfortunately we still have a large section of the population who still believes that . Pardon me , my allergies are really kicking up today . All right , there we go .
Speaker 3I thought I was the one bringing you tears .
Speaker 2Okay .
Speaker 3Well , you know , if I might , jack , I'd like to talk about Fox , because there's some let's start with what you just said News does not have to be true the very station they worked for because the station they worked for tried to force them to change the story about bovine growth hormone causing cancer in people to such a degree that the story was no longer true . And it was Fox News' own Roger Ailes who was putting pressure on the local O&O station there in Tampa Bay . And so the reporters were told no , you can't air that story . And they had them water it down to such a point that the story it no longer told the truth to the public . And so there is a process that we can do , and it's very lengthy . It takes a lot of time , money , effort , but because we actually do own these airwaves , we have the right to challenge these licenses . It's kind of like if you have a reckless driver and the reckless driver has caused an accident that hurt you , you can tell the DMV take that guy's license away , and they likely will , even without you asking . We have the same rights in broadcasting . It is very rarely used
Promoting Media Ownership Legislation for Accountability
Speaker 3. I'll tell you the TVD story first and then I'll tell you about how I won in such a case . Okay , yes , but so Jane Acree and Steve Wilson brought this case and , by the way , I made a film called Broadcast Blues . And if you go to my website you're going to see some of these stories and this particular story news does not have to be true is featured , so you can just you're going to see some of these stories and this particular story News Does Not have to Be True is featured , so you can just spend four minutes to see the actual inside the courtroom footage of what happened there .
Speaker 3And what did happen there was that the jury found that indeed Fox had forced the reporters to distort the news . There in those days was a news distortion rule from the FCC ? I think there still is , but none of the rules are ever enforced , so it doesn't much matter . But yet Jane won her case against Fox News and proved in a court of law that Fox had done this and that they had deliberately distorted the news . Well , it went to the appeals court , which , of course , is their right . But the Fox lawyers made the argument is that there's no law against distorting the news . There's an FCC rule that says you can't do that , but there's no law that says you can't . So the verdict was reversed on appeal and poor Jane Acree ended up having to pay Fox legal fees for that entire case , I mean . But that's kind of been the hallmark of Donald .
Speaker 2Trump Things that used to serve as guardrails , rules and policies that weren't laws but that we treated kind of like they were laws , because it's just what everybody before us did . And so , oh , there's a rule , we can't do that . Ok , we won't . Donald Trump identified what's a rule and what's a law . And if it's a rule , then it doesn't apply . And and if it's a rule , then it doesn't apply . And yeah , here we are , that we demand that we don't just have rules in place , but laws , things that we can actually get leverage on to enforce them and to do something .
Speaker 3That's a really good question and I think that's the heart of it is that we have to have legislation to protect our rights in this very narrow field that we own . But we can at least do this . And in order to get that legislation , we're going to need to have allies in Congress who wake up and go oh oh , we can do this . Yes , we can , but we need your help . Now on my website , on the Media Action Center website , I've got a lot of specifics , but I have some . First of all , don't allow a radio station to just license unlimited numbers of radio stations nationally or more than four stations in one town . Now that could be written into the law . It would cause an earthquake in the radio industry because companies like Clear Channel that have like about a thousand stations all of a sudden would have to divest . But that's okay , you'd have room for other people to come up and say all right , let's build new radio stations , let's have a whole new dynamic in radio , let's put local people on the air again , let's people get people calling in locally and get your points of view on our air right here . That's the way radio was , it's the way it should be , and we need legislation to do that . All right , so there's one . We also don't allow one television company to run more than two stations in one TV market . Tv market they're running us over . Let me say this again Don't allow one TV company to run more than two stations in one television market . Make room for other licensees to come in to better serve the public interest and to protect us . Also , legislate against these rules that the FCC snuck in that allow one big station , one group like Sinclair , to just run four stations in town , and in Sinclair's case they have shell games playing . They actually own these stations . All right , but that's a whole other story for a whole other time that people would fall asleep listening to . Bottom line is those are important points of legislation that we can and should be doing , and if we just get the attention of the powers that be both Democrats , independents and guess what , jack , republicans I work routinely with Republicans , especially on local news issues there's a real understanding that there's something gone awry and that we need to work together to do that .
Speaker 3Okay , I have a third one for you , and then we talked about this one earlier . Legislate that right to respond so that if people are attacked on the local airwaves . They have the right to respond . So if you have one big national show , at least you could have 10 minutes at the end of the hour for and it could be a national person , but on our airwaves , somebody to push back , instead of just allow this onslaught of misinformation , misinformation , disinformation , lies to brainwash America . That is why we are where we are today , because we're just not hearing both sides of the story . And , with all due respect , you're doing great work here with the podcast , but you're siloed off in such a way . Sure , we'd like to see you on the airwaves so that all kinds of people can hear you and listen to you . Right ?
Speaker 2I've got a question about so many things that you said , but I'm going to zero in on one , and I don't know that this is something you have an answer to , but you may have some insight or personal feelings as to why this is . You know , you talked about in the beginning that the big Republican held companies . Corporations basically said OK , here we go . Companies corporations basically , you know , said okay , here we go , we're going to sweep all of this up and control it , and not just with media related issues , but in other areas of life too .
Speaker 2We've seen that and my question is are there no billionaires who are Democrats , billionaires who are Democrats ? You know , where do we see that counter effect coming ? You know , we hear about these massive machines that are gobbling everything up , that are , you know , republican influenced or Republican held . But why shouldn't we have our own big machines to fight that ? And perhaps I've missed out and there are , and I just don't know about them , but I haven't seen much evidence of that . So what are your thoughts on why we don't or , if we do , who are they on why we don't or , if we do , who ?
Speaker 3are they ? It's one of the great disappointments of my life , because , going back to about 2004 , there was a pretty good movement surrounding the broadcast airwaves , and I knew personally a couple of billionaires who were getting involved . The major media reform organizations decided , though , that they wanted to focus on the internet , net neutrality and those issues , and let's just not worry about broadcasting . And they've made strides , and , you know , recently , net neutrality is now the new rule .
Challenging Media Ownership for Accountability
Speaker 3I keep going back to yeah , but you're abandoning what we own . You're saving the house down the street thating what we own . You're saving the house down the street that you don't own . You got to save your own house from the fire , right ? Where are these people ?
Speaker 3I'm grateful for the opportunity to talk with you today , because I think , as people wake up and understand that , oh hello , there's things we can do . Yes , there are many things that we can do , starting locally and branching out nationally . Where are they ? Wake up . You know Mark Cuban , where are you ? I know that . You know it's the guy like him . They're out there . Maybe it's just that they don't see the plan . I'd be happy to consult with you folks . It's absolutely possible to do this , but it is going to take will . It's going to take political will . We've talked about that . We actually need some legislation . It's going to take a president who will chair the FCC , and it could be a president of either party , because these really are not partisan issues . They're democracy issues . I hope that they respond , because we're not able to do this by ourselves .
Speaker 2Right , and you know , I mean we see what Mark Cuban has done with the pharmacy situation that he started and I haven't followed up on that recently , but when he first initiated that it looked like a fantastic resource . For some people it seemed like it probably isn't going to help a certain section of the population , but for those who had that specific need that he was addressing it's got to be a fantastic breath of fresh air . And boy do we appreciate those efforts like that . And yet that is kind of a thin slice of the societal pie in terms of that big machine . You know , this is something that mark cuban kind of came up with on his own . It's , it's , it's a mark cuban thing . But we've got the , the bill gates , the mark Cuban , who we would like to see come together and have that synergistic effect of oh okay , well , you guys came together to gobble all of this up . We're going to come together to maybe gobble up some of what you've gobbled up , that we didn't like the way you organized it , and so we're going to gobble it up and reorganize it in a way that is beneficial to all and we just that's .
Speaker 2On so many issues I look and I always talk about . Okay , well , big money controls that , and it's like I know we have big money on this side too . Why aren't we controlling some things with our big money ? So yeah , I think , while we work on that local level , like you suggested that is kind of at the heart of where everything else blossoms from I think we can also appeal over and over and over again to our billionaires and say , look , we don't know why you haven't done this , but we'd like you to at least think about it . Do you think there's the possibility that the Republican machinery , if you will , is just so damn big and powerful that when they consider doing something like that , that goes , you know , on a personal level , I just don't know if I want to involve myself in this . Do you think it's so big that that's kind of an effect ?
Speaker 3I think there are chinks in the armor of the Republican machinery , and I don't know if you've heard of a case that's going on right now where the Media and Democracy Coalition is attempting to challenge the license of the Fox-owned and operated station in Philadelphia . Why are they doing that ? Because a man , prominent Republican , named Preston Padden , who was Rupert Murdoch's right-hand man in his broadcasting empire , which is different from his cablecasting empire , preston Patton finally saw the light and realized what he had been doing by virtue of decimating the broadcasting and really supporting lies going across our airwaves . And so Preston Patton is working with this smaller Media and Democracy Coalition group . If they're successful , they will actually take away that station's license and the basis of that .
Speaker 3Now here's another thing that's in the law In order to have a broadcast license , one must have sufficient character . You can't be a felon bum and have a broadcast license . And what they're doing is they're going back into the Dominion lawsuit case and showing that it has been proven that Fox knew that they were lying about the results of the 2020 election . They continue to do so anyway in order to maintain audience ratings . Now , again , this is look . We're looking at combining the local level with the national problem . But if they succeed in getting the FCC to say you're right , there's a character problem here , it's very likely Fox will lose all its licenses to all of its owned and operated stations . This is not like the one probably in Kansas City . I don't know if that's an owned and operated station . Many of them , like the one in Sacramento , is not .
Speaker 2I see .
Speaker 3What that means for people who don't understand is that many stations are operated by smaller companies and TV , but they'll make an affiliate agreement with Fox and then they'll get the ability to have Fox News feeds to use in their local broadcast news . They'll get the Fox football games and the Fox programming as an affiliate station . The owner-operator stations are different but again , connecting that idea that we have power , I'm going to tell you another brief story about the only time that this has been successful . Here in Sacramento , way back in 2007 , there was a radio station locally intercom radio station that ran a contest Hold Yourii for a wii . It was a water drinking contest and the last person who had to wii would win a nintendo wii . And so they had this party-like contest going on . They were promoting it for weeks .
Speaker 3They clearly made it clear that they knew people could get hurt . There'd been a kid up in chico State who had died as a result of drinking too much water . They made fun of that on the air . That was just great fun . Long story short , a woman died at that contest . She got very ill . She complained that she couldn't drive home . The station wouldn't help her . She did drive home . They found her dead . Later she had died of hyponatremia , which is in in essence , drinking too much water yes , plummeted .
Speaker 3Because I happened to be making broadcast blues at that time I did a segment about this but also because I am a member of this community . I have standing in this community because I listened to that radio station . Because I had standing , I was able to personally petition to deny that station's license . Essentially . Well , I went in and I covered the trial every day . I'm close enough . I could drive to the radio station or not the radio station . I could drive to the courthouse in Sacramento in order to do the coverage on the case itself and I wrote about that every day for the Sacramento Press .
Speaker 3But then took that information plus stuff I cobbled together out of the courthouse and wrote a petition to deny KD&D's license saying what's the bar here ? Can you kill somebody on the air and still keep your radio station ? Can you kill somebody on the air and still keep your radio station ? And my attorney who helps me ? He helped me with that . He said you know this is not going to go anywhere , but you got to do it because it's the right thing to do .
Speaker 3Well , it was about two years later and I was standing in my foyer of my niece in North Dakota and I get a call from Art . He said you're not going to believe this . This thing's going to a hearing . We haven't had a hearing like this in 40 years . Nobody knows what to do with this . And at the end of the day Intercom settled and they gave up that $13.9 million radio license to that station in Sacramento . Because I stood up as an individual and said I'm going to file this petition Now . I don't recommend everybody do this , but I had the goods on them and the case was pretty clear cut . Can you kill people on the radio or not ?
Speaker 2So just to be clear and thank you for pointing that out , If you're going to do this , you need to have a case , you need to have the goods . You're not suggesting that people just go out and start filing petitions just because Because that will hurt our cause . I'm guessing , If there's a legitimate case and I would gather you would probably suggest that somebody speak with an attorney , if not hire an attorney , before engaging in something like this but if there's a case , then it takes people like you or any of us to actually follow through , to actually file it . And you know , I think what's important is that you said your attorney said to you Sue , you know this isn't going to go anywhere . Now it seems as though you and I are cut from the same cloth , because when somebody tells me , Jack , you know this isn't going to go anywhere , my enthusiasm just doubles at that moment . And maybe it won't , but we're going to find out right .
Speaker 2So that is , and that's something I think people more than ever need to realize we can't just get on social media and excite each other and bitch and moan . It's going to take outside world , real action , action steps , doing things rather than just talking about things , and some of those things are going to require some personal sacrifice . They may put us at risk , expose us in some way , but every time I think about that , every time I hear somebody say that and say , oh , I don't want to for this reason . That reason I think about the hundreds of thousands of men and women who have died serving this country in combat and didn't come home who didn't say , ah , it would expose me to this risk , I don't want to do it , you know .
Speaker 3Well said .
Speaker 2What ? Why is it that we're seeing this ? And you may not have a specific answer , but as immersed in all of this as you are , I think you can probably provide some insight the closer it has gotten to the election , especially in this last six to nine months . I have seen two particular cable channels , msnbc and CNN . I have seen them progress from this at one time pretty staunch Democratic supporting station , democratic supporting station to , yeah , they kind of got into a gray area or you weren't sure what direction they were going and on some nights now it appears that they might be pulling for the other side . So , in terms of ownership and control , what goes on potentially behind the scenes for something like this to happen ? Because I'm guessing it doesn't just happen by accident , it's not like the host or the anchors get together and say you know , this month we ought to start kind of edging this way a little more . I'm guessing they get their walking orders from someone . Can you tell me a little bit about how that works ?
Speaker 3The insight that I can provide comes from Phil Donahue . I interviewed Phil Donahue for Broadcast Blues and Phil Donahue at that time Phil Donahue for Broadcast Blues and Phil Donahue at that time . It was during the Iraq War . It was right after 9-11 . He had let's have been before the Iraq War , it was right after 9-11 . And I remember , because he specifically talked about these widows of the pilots and that they're grieving , but they were so anti-war . That was kind of the gist of what he was talking about and as he was on MSNBC telling these stories and having these people on and it was a talk show , an audience-oriented talk show , an audience oriented talk show , ge , who owned MSNBC , did not like what he was saying . Ge , of course , was part of the war machine . They were making money off of war and it didn't take long and Phil Donahue's show was pulled off the air .
Speaker 3And I really encourage people . If you can , I'll get back on . I'll put some links to make these easy to find . But that story in particular is something to actually see because it really typifies of what the corporations can do with their control . You know , personal insight I never worked for a cable station .
Local News Ownership and Advocacy
Speaker 3I did work for the Fox owned and operated station in Sacramento for Los Angeles CBS . Oh , I'm sorry , it wasn't a Fox owned and operated . I worked for the Fox affiliate in Sacramento for the Los Angeles own and operation station . I guess I'm getting tongue-tied here .
Speaker 2More coffee always helps , that'll help .
Speaker 3Bottom line I worked for Fox affiliate in Sacramento , los Angeles . I worked for CBS , the ONO and then locally for Capitol Public Radio and for our local public TV station . So I'm steeped in broadcasting . But I've also seen corporate control coming down on those levels as well , especially at the Fox station . So does that happen ? Yes , how do you prevent that from happening ? Again , I'm just going to tell people it's very , very difficult to control anything that goes on on cable TV . If there's a way to do it , I haven't figured it out , but you can control your local stations , and you know .
Speaker 3We talked a little bit earlier about what exactly do you do ? And what about the billionaires ? And there's a desert of local news these days . There are some communities that are lucky if they get one news report , thanks in large part to Craigslist . Newspapers are going out of business . They used to make all this money selling classified ads . That's gone and you have to have money in order to pay for journalists . I mean , it's nice to say well , you can just do that for free . Well , okay , how about you work for me for free ? Then you come , fix my roof and I'll do your news . All right , that sounds like a good idea . I think the key to all of our ills starts with the local level and even though we might talk about billionaires , all right , we need to be looking at how do we shore up local news at the local level . I think that's what's most important , because if you live in a community where you're getting one news show and guess what they're doing now A lot of these companies like Sinclair , tegna , nexstar they're all doing it .
Speaker 3They told the FCC that if only they could operate three or four different stations in the same community , they could offer more and better local news . Well , I did a study and I filed this in an amicus brief to the Supreme Court which showed that if you look at their websites , yes , they're operating three or four stations in the same town and if you look at the three or four websites , they all have exactly the same news stories on those stations . Anecdotally , I've talked to people in those towns that go oh yeah , you just switch from one station to the next . It's exactly the same story . They're just pretending that they're doing more and better local news . It's exactly the same story . They're just pretending that they're doing more and better local news , but no , they're just taking one news story and cookie-cuttering and pasting it onto multiple stations .
Speaker 3Yes , it's the local level that's most at need . It's the local level that's easiest to change . It's the local level where we have power . So what do you do with Fox and CNN and NBC ? I don't know , turn it off if you don't like it , but get involved locally and you know , maybe that means we start networking with the richer people in our local towns . I need a lot of help with this folks . I got a lot of good ideas , but get some structure behind this would be really helpful .
Speaker 2Well , and I think what you are suggesting too fits into this idea that I have about sometimes getting involved as much as the goal is to achieve XYZ . Sometimes the greatest thing that blossoms out of that is that you have now become involved , because there will be times when you don't get the outcome , but you'll see how close you got and how much you learned about the process , so that when you do it the next time , you are now more educated , skilled and savvy , and that may very well contribute to why you do get it done this time .
Speaker 3I had an activist tell me once that anybody who works in activism has to . If they're going to volunteer , they have to find a reward . And I talked earlier about our Occupy Clear Channel action , where we sent Joe Average citizens into radio stations all across the country . They were scared , they thought maybe they'd get arrested , but I kept telling them no , this is your legal right , you're fine , you won't be arrested . But what I got , the feedback that I got back , was they walked out of those stations empowered . They had no idea that they owned so much power . They were thrilled with this action which has carried them through . Now , and let's face it , all of us who volunteer and I volunteer for other things just besides this you can't do this forever . You tend to get a group that does something for a little while and then other people come along . But absolutely , if you can see a real reward and especially if you do something locally in your community , yes , that enlivens you .
Speaker 2It feeds the spirit it does . Sue , I don't think I've ever felt as alive at any period in my life as I do doing what I'm doing now , because there is such a singular focus . I've just , I've blocked out everything else for now Because this issue , I believe , is that important . That's not always been the case for me when it comes to politics . I've always felt like politics and what's going on at any given time is of importance , but I've never had that feeling that it was really all that mattered right now . And of course , you've got the day-to-day things you have to still tend to and take care of . And you know you've got to pay the light bill , but those are way out in the periphery now . They get taken care of , but they're not in that tight circle . But they're not in that tight circle . And to wake up each day and to have that tight circle , it does , it energizes you . I would suggest that there are probably studies out there that show it's beneficial to our health . It's certainly hard , much harder , I should say . It's certainly much harder for somebody to feel as depressed if they are doing something that has a valuable purpose , that can impact the lives of other people . And so , again , for that reason .
Speaker 2I know right now , the last few months people have , especially prior to this verdict yesterday , there were a lot of people that were kind of getting to where they felt like they were at the end of their rope . You know , we've just feel like we've been beat up over and over and over again , and the danger with that is that once people reach that point , if you can't get them out of it some way , they finally learned helplessness . They finally just fall to the wayside and get into that I'm not doing anything , I'm done with it all . And boy , when people reach a , I'm done with it all , point and enough . You know , when that hits critical mass , we lose elections . We cannot lose this election , because if we lose this election , like you mentioned earlier and I can't remember the exact topic you were speaking on , but you said , if Trump comes back into office , I think it had to do with the FCC and what he would do , who he would install , right , I think you and I both know , while right now , some of the changes you mentioned require Congress to act , donald Trump is not going to worry about Congress when Congress will not bend in his direction .
Speaker 2You know , when we start thinking more in terms of dictators and how dictators operate . When they can't get their way , they finally just at some point do away with the people who aren't cooperating and either install people who will cooperate or they just don't pay any attention to them at all Use fear and intimidation , which he has indicated clearly he plans to do and at some point . I bring that up because while you and I've been talking about a very specific issue , it fits so neatly into the much larger issue of democracy , much larger issue of democracy . You said something that was very chilling right in the beginning and I think maybe you were talking about in the 80s , early 90s I can't remember the exact time frame , but you said I think it was with the Fairness Doctrine and you said I realized that if we didn't get some things changed , we were going to , I think you said , have a dictator in office one day . You might not have called it dictator , but you alluded to the fact that we would have a dictator someday Because they would manipulate and use the media as a way of controlling the masses . And that's exactly what we have seen happening and for everything you and I have talked about that you have identified , that's in place now . That's bad for America . That will be all there is for America if Donald Trump makes it into office again and I hate to even let these words tumble out of my mouth , but I think you would probably agree that if he makes it back into office , many of the strategies that we've been speaking about will kind of be a moot point when it comes to what Donald Trump . I think if we look to Vladimir Putin and what the people in Russia get to see and hear , or don't , if you are a journalist in Russia and you deviate from the approved narrative , you're going to be pushing up daisies in the local cemetery . We have no reason to believe that wouldn't be the case here . He's clearly suggested and I think he's mentioned journalists on a few occasions that you know don't quote me on this , but I think that he linked journalists and execution together in some offhand remark that he made . But although , to clarify , offhand remarks aren't just offhand remarks with Donald Trump , they are a tunnel right into the heart of his thinking and they tell you exactly why .
Speaker 2You know you were talking about people being able to go on air and lie . Donald Trump it's interesting is known as one of the most prolific liars in history . And yet , at the same time , he's always telling the truth about what he intends to do , and that's the one thing that nobody seems to listen to . We get caught up in his lies , which they're pretty good distractors . And so then , when he says something that's truthful , and so then , when he says something that's truthful because it's so painful to embrace as potentially being true , as a whole , collectively , we just oh , that's Donald , how many times have we heard that ? Right , we're kind of getting to the unfortunately , because I'm gonna have to have you back on in the future for for sure , because there's so much I still want to talk about with you and I know you've got so much to say . You said we talk a little bit about the fcc . If you could , can you , can you kind of set that up for maybe another episode that we do Just kind of give us a prelude into talking about the FCC .
Speaker 3Sure , of course , I'm happy to do that , and I just want to say this because I think you're right I think there's a lot of burnout .
Empowering Citizens Through Media Engagement
Speaker 3I think that people are feeling disempowered , they don't know what to do . They see this freight train coming , but they don't know how to stop it . I think we need to take a breath . I think , at this moment in time , we need to take a breath . Sometimes you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of others . Yes , at the same time , it is a moment of truth , isn't it ? It sure is .
Speaker 3It's very difficult sometimes to talk with others who are they're in their information silos , who really don't believe anything that anyone else says , except for what they hear on Fox News or what Donald Trump parrots . So I think , if you're feeling that way , take that breath , take a step back , turn off the news for a week or two . I think that more and more independent people , there's more and more independent voters these days , which I see is very , very healthy . I've been an independent voter myself pretty much my whole life and I'm not a political animal , but I think that talking with others in a gentle way , bringing up things you know like , okay , there's what was it ? 37 counts that he was just found guilty of 34 for sure , 34 , okay , thank you .
Speaker 2I think he's got 37 counts under the Espionage Act in Florida , but maybe that was the number you were thinking of . He has so many .
Speaker 3Well , I mean , you know 34 felony counts and there are so many people who believe this is a witch hunt that this is rigged , because that's what they've been told over and over and over again . And okay , my idea , my light bulb just went on . I think , once again , maybe it involves going to that local radio station , and it's the radio stations in particular , because you don't really have big problems with local TV news , Because you don't really have big problems with local TV news . It's the radio stations that are parroting this over and over and over again . And it might be time for a little group to walk in and talk to that local GM and news director and say you know , what are you doing to our democracy here ? Put some alternative , actual facts on the air , some fact checking on the air on some of these statements that you're hitting was you're brainwashing us with . That might be a worthwhile endeavor . And then again , if you're going to do it , write a report . If you want , I'll post it on Media Action Center because we've got to have . It's a two-sided coin . You want to have these conversations with your local people and you know a lot , especially of the older people who work in broadcasting . They don't like this , especially if you walk into a GM's manager who's 60 years old . He remembers what it used to be , you bet , and he'll probably be , you know , a little more friendly to the idea .
Speaker 3The challenge is how do we attack this on the corporate higher level ? If I knew that , I'd have done it already , but I do think that it'll help if you can go in to talk with these stations and if you can move the needle there and now , before this election , maybe go in also with this idea that worked here in Sacramento . We would like to see . In the 60 days before the election , certain things happen . What are those things ? It's up to you . It's your airwaves . If you succeed , you're going to feel tremendously empowered . If you don't succeed , at least you've got something to talk about in the locker room , and maybe talking about it in the locker room is the thing that gets other people on your side and go . You know that's right . That's how it should be . We're in perilous times .
Speaker 2I couldn't agree more and in fact , I would make this statement about that the people who will listen or watch this episode and who will go talk to that local radio station manager , either as an individual or as a group , those will be the people who will be much more likely to vote in November . So I know I see a lot of people really wound up and enthused about going to vote , and that's fantastic , but I also know that historically , historically , there's a difference between the number of people who say I'm excited to go vote and the people who actually vote . And so if anybody's listening or watching right now and says , well , what can I do then ? Because I've tended to be that person , I've always intended to vote , but something came up or couldn't find a babysitter and I didn't go vote . What can I do right now to increase the odds that I'll follow through and vote November ?
Speaker 2And I would say go to your local radio station , go to your website , go to Sue Wilson's website and look at the material she's got , watch this again , take notes and then go to your local radio station for no other reason than you are going to do something . Then you are going to do something . You may succeed . You may not , but you will have gotten engaged . And if you get engaged now , in almost June or is it June , no , we're still in May You're far more likely to stay engaged and then be engaged in November .
Speaker 2So in that way , I think what you have shared today not only such an important piece of educating people and revealing some of what these big companies and corporations don't want them to even know in the first place , but you've also given them a window into how they can buoy themselves between now and November and engage now . I know for a lot of people it's so frustrating because they're ready to vote right now . I see it all . I wish I could vote today . Right , unfortunately we can't vote today , but we can kind of cast our ballot at the local radio station for what we would like to see happen . So start right now , and your website again , sue is .
Speaker 3We have suewilsonreportscom that is where I put the journalistic side of these issues and we have mediaactioncenternet . So Sue Wilson Reports and Media Action Center . Media Action Center is where there will be actual actions that you can take . And I tell you what , because of this lovely show and thank you for having me I'll spend a little time in the next couple of days and I'll put a few new things up to help people , to guide them . And how would you do ?
Speaker 2this exactly . That would be fantastic and I should have asked you before we started the show . I should have asked you before we started the show . I see that you've done some public speaking and going out and talking to people on these issues . Are you someone who's available for hire or does consulting or goes and speaks to groups , or is that something you don't do a lot of anymore ?
Speaker 3My favorite thing in the world is to speak to groups , and I would be honored if somebody could pay me a stipend . That would be very helpful . This is not a career that pays a lot of money .
Speaker 2So I could imagine a scenario where there would be several groups in areas across the nation where somebody listens to this , watches this and says , hey , this is something we didn't know a whole lot about , but I know more about it now and Sue Wilson knows a whole lot about it and has done this before . Let's form a group and then let's have Sue come and talk to our group , because it's only June , there's time , there's time to take some action before the election and you know it's only June . It's kind of two sides of the same coin , because on one hand there's not a lot of time left until the election , but in terms of action steps , we don't need to just be sitting around between now and November . So again , please get in touch with Sue . If nothing else , just give her some feedback on the information that you got from her throughout this episode , because I know I told you beforehand coming into this I knew I didn't know much about this and that was kind of embarrassing to me that I didn't .
Speaker 2But we all tend to kind of get stuck in our own little you know areas of specialization , own little you know areas of specialization , and sometimes we don't look out of that little track , but I find it more and more important for me each day to look at what don't I know that I need to know and then find those people , Because it's a lot easier for me just to go straight to the source and learn than it is to try to start out from scratch , like you did , and claw my way up over a period of years and then learn what you now know .
Speaker 2I can't thank you enough for being with me today . I have learned a great deal . I have a lot of ideas brewing in my head right now and my legal pad is about to get some ink on it . As soon as we are done , let's do this again sometime . We'll get some feedback from the listeners , the viewers , back from the listeners , the viewers , on what they learned , what they might want to know more about , and we will reconvene and do it again , if you are game .
Speaker 3I'd be honored . Thank you , Jack .
Speaker 2Fantastic , sue , all right . Thanks for everybody who tuned in . Be sure and check out Sue's websites , because she has two . Also follow her on Twitter and your Twitter handle is Sue Blues Wilson Sue Blues Wilson , so check her out there . Also , check out my website at jackhopkinsnowcom . All right , sue , it's been great . I'll be talking to you again soon . And everybody out there in cyber world , I'll talk to you again soon too . Thank you . Outro Music .
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