Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Jack Hopkins Show podcast, where stories about the power of focus and resilience are revealed by the people who live those stories and now the host of the Jack Hopkins Show podcast, jack Hopkins.

Speaker 2: 0:20

Hello and welcome to the Jack Hopkins Show podcast. I'm your host, Jack Hopkins, and today I have back with me investigative journalist Jonathan Greenberg. Welcome, Jonathan.

Speaker 3: 0:34

Thank you, jack.

Speaker 2: 0:35

It's good to be on again and it's always good to you know, to hear you and talk to you and see your posts on Twitter and just see your posts on Twitter and just likewise, my friend, you know we, yeah, it's it's not been in the grand scheme of things, it's not that been that long ago that we talked it's. It's been a few months perhaps, um, and we we talked about in a in maybe a more generalized way, about some of the things we're going to address today. However, now we're discussing it in crunch time.

Speaker 3: 1:12

Yes, we are really close. I mean, thankfully Harris is the candidate now Right and not Biden just in terms of the strong versus weak narrative, and I guess I didn't think it would be this close and I just, you know, like many patriotic Americans, it's very disheartening to see how close it is, given that the choice seems so clear and the recommendations that anybody with any independent integrity and care for our future and awareness of what a Trump administration, a Trump dictatorship, would look like, has come out clearly against Trump and on behalf of Harris, including some extremely conservative people and people who've never delved into politics before. And there's a reason for that, and that's not because they're Trump haters, it's because he represents an existential threat to the future of this country. And that's why I started the StopTrumpDictatorshipcom project. We're putting out videos right up into the day of the election. Nice, you know, like promoting these videos as ads, opinion shifting videos that have information, because if to be a Trump supporter, it you really need to be, at this stage, misinformed Right.

Speaker 3: 2:52

Or you know there's, there's a large number, I believe, are misinformed, deliberately misinformed, by the most formidable extremist right-wing media networks that have ever existed. I mean 94% of the primary voters in California as well as North Carolina, who voted for Trump over Nikki Haley, believed he won the last election. There is no reality, no world in Israel. The last election there is no reality, no world in Israel. Three of his own, all of his three legal counsels that he picked Justice Department, white House counsel, campaign counsel told him you lost the election, there was no election theft. And yet they believe that he won the election simply because the media drums it in and he continues to lie and they continue to amplify his lies.

Speaker 3: 3:48

So that's a large part. So what? I guess we still have? Everything is relying. And then there's a group of low information voters just not paying attention. And there's a surprising number of young people out there and I guess maybe it's always been so, it probably has because they turn out to vote at like half the rate of people my age or people lower, sometimes two-thirds the rate that we vote, who just don't believe they have enough information to vote. And those are the people I think in this last round we need to try to reach, or we need to ask our friends or relatives who know such people to try to reach.

Speaker 3: 4:35

Because, that turnout is going to determine this election, along with some people who are planning to go on election day and could swing at the last minute. Now, my greatest hope around that, before we get to messaging for them, jack, is that Harris's ground game is fantastic, just like Obama. People are knocking on doors. I know people in Pennsylvania right now. People are knocking on doors. I know people in Pennsylvania right now. You know we read about what they're saying about the doors they're knocking on to bill turnout, and I mean you read Elon Musk. There was this whole expose about Elon Musk's campaign that he's paid this money to help Trump with his ground game, and they were putting people. You know they imported black people from the Midwest to go in the back of a van with no seatbelts and no money, not knowing what they were doing. Why do they need to do that? Because people are embarrassed to support this serial sexual assaulter, this notorious liar, this person who his whole campaign is built around retribution and who has nothing to offer the people of the United States.

Speaker 2: 5:52

Nothing, no plan, nothing. Well, actually, I should take that back. There's a plan, all right, but it's called Project 2025, but not the kind of plan we want.

Speaker 3: 6:03

No, nobody wants that. Yeah, not the kind of plan we want. No, nobody wants that, yeah. So I mean, you know, let's just there, are you know, so, so, so how do we reach those people you know? And? And so, if you know any such people and so I was listening to an interview with one such young man the other day I don't know enough and they don't feel empowered to participate in democracy because they've been told and they feel you don't know enough to participate in democracy. And to them I would say there are some people who you know, who have much lower IQs than you do, than you do, who are, you know, who are angry, who are virulent racists, who are virulent anti-Semites, virulent, you know, anti-arab and Muslim people, anti-immigrant, and they could barely, you know, talk and chew gum, walk and chew gum at the same time, and they're going to vote. And so do you know enough that you would like to have some competent, you know? Just vote and let a competent government take place instead of a, you know, a corrupt government. And look at Putin, look at Russia. That is exactly Trump's model. That is where we will be on January 22nd.

Speaker 3: 7:24

So then there's a group of voters who are anti-abortion and I've known some extremely conscientious Catholic people in my time and worked with them and, you know, in soup kitchens and around them and very good friends of mine, and I know that there are people who believe that abortion is murder and there's it's probably a good third to a half of the people voting for Trump and they feel that there are 600,000 babies being murdered every year and the first thing they would do, the most important thing in the world, is to stop that from happening, and so they'll support, to stop that from happening, and so they'll support. And what I would say to those people, you know, is you know that this is not about everyone could make their own decision about abortion. Everyone should make, but and that there was a lot of lies out there as soon as a baby is viable, that it is against the law to abort that baby. There are no babies who could be born, who this nine-month abortion thing is disgraceful. And that this is not about whether there will be abortions, because in every land, in every case, really, in the founding of our nation, there were, you know, abortions being performed. This is about whether there will be safe abortions. This is about whether women will be able to abort their rapist babies. 60,000 women have given birth to their rapist babies in, you know, in red states that have abortion bans 60,000. Wow, yep, in in. You know, in in red states that have abortion bans 60 000. Wow, yeah, yeah text and and it's like this is and they're gonna, and these babies will be unwanted.

Speaker 3: 9:12

You know, I once did a story about you know, you know, and I did research and it's something like 80 of the people in prison today, uh, you know, were foster children, did not have parents. You know who took care of them, could you? And that? And we have two million people in prison. Can you imagine if there were, you know, like like 60 million more babies born in the last 50 years who were, by definition, unwanted, what our nation now, you know, would would look like? It makes no sense.

Speaker 3: 9:48

So I would, you know, this is about safe abortion and women's lives and women's health and women's freedom, I mean. So that's one thing I would say to them, to the young people, I would say that and and it. You know that this really is about, you know, our future and it's about whether we have competent. No one's asking people to get a PhD in political science. In order to vote, there's not even a literacy requirement to vote. You know it's very clear Everyone has a right to vote and it's a question of whether you're going to vote for. You know it's very clear Everyone has a right to vote and it's a question of whether you're going to vote for, you know, competent government or corrupt government. And so I would try to put that to the young people to motivate them.

Speaker 3: 10:38

And then there's people of color. What I would stress is, as we go out to talk to those, or maybe try to motivate those who don't, who aren't thinking of voting. And is that young people? Because I have, I have young children, you know, teenage children gone through high school, ones in college that there's this real tendency to be neutral. I don't know if you've heard that term around campuses. I don't want to take a position, I'm neutral. You know I'm not. Yes, and and. And yet there's also a very strong sense of anti-racism as well. Trump is a racist, the people who follow him on racist. A vote for Trump is a racist. The people who follow him are racist. A vote for Trump is a racist vote. It is, and a vote against Trump is a vote against racism. So, anyway, that's my message to oh.

Speaker 2: 11:38

I think that's such a critical message. And, when you look, this is the one glaring issue as it relates to abortion that I always think of is that the Trump voters are willing to vote for a man who says he will execute or imprison people who disagree with him, who already have established families children, wives but then they fight tooth and nail about this life that has not even entered the world yet. And when I look at that and then say, okay, you, clearly it's not about life for you, because if it were about life period, then you would find appalling a former president saying, hey, you don't like me, you didn't vote for me, you wrote something bad about me. If you're lucky, I'll put you in prison, if you're unlucky, well, you might be executed. It's, it's absurd. And then there's health health care.

Speaker 3: 12:56

You know obamacare. He's now saying he wouldn't take away obamacare. And you know he was. You know he created a bill. He created lawsuit after lawsuit and he had no plan. He had an idea for a plan. He was going to take 50 million people off health insurance and what would that have? Given him, given us? What would have happened to the health of those people and how are we caring for the people? You know would have happened to the health of those people and how are we caring for the people? You know tax cuts to billionaires is going to help take care of those of us who are alive and the children that we have. There's only one party that sticks out for the American family and wants to create parental leave, child care, health insurance for those who can't afford us. You know a healthier, you know a healthier population, and that's the Democrats. Over the past, it wasn't always that way. I mean, nixon created the EPA. You know it's, it's, you know, for clean water, it, it, just it has become. It really has become that.

Speaker 2: 13:58

Well, there's. There's never any discussion, any discussion like, for example, when Mike Johnson recently in an interview, as much as anyone can, said hey, you know Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act, it will be gone. Now, when it comes to pre-existing conditions, they never discuss what the consequence of that will be. Their benefit, if you will, is just being able to trumpet out loud we're going to do away with it, but they never explain or even go in that direction. Here's what that will do, here's what that will mean for you. And, as you and I both know, it won't just be Democrats that that hurts. It will be people from coast to coast that suddenly find themselves in this really precarious situation. I no longer have insurance, and not only that, but now I can't get it because of this preexisting health concern.

Speaker 2: 15:16

And you know, this nation has always had a knack, if you will, for coming together, neighborhoods coming together, churches coming together. When somebody's fallen on tough times, you know I can't pay the medical bills, I can't get insurance, and if you're fortunate, if you have a nice network, there are people who will assist you with that. But we are talking about numbers on such a scale. That is not a feasible solution, because the people who usually kick in a little bit to help the friend or neighbor will quite possibly be one of the people who's needing someone to kick in for them, so it's a spooky situation for sure you know, I've done some writing about health insurance and health care and I worked trying to help save a local hospital because, as you know, regional and rural hospitals are just under the gun by the big, the corp talk.

Speaker 3: 16:22

You know the corporations, I don't. You know, and and we've all seen this, if we, you know, if something happens, or we know somebody who doesn't have insurance and a hospital will charge them five times as much as they're charging to an insurance company. Yes, some poor joe you know joe blow who's you know class person can't afford health insurance. And then they get hit with a hospital bill that makes them sell their house because the insurance company would pay $5,000, but they've got to pay $40,000 because they don't have insurance. You would think it would be the opposite, but they've got to spend into bankruptcy before emergency Medicaid would would chip in. It's it if you don't have insurance. In this system it's it's feast or famine. You either go, not feast, I mean you either get on. You. You either have nothing and the government pays for you, or whatever you have as a working class person, as a middle class class person, as a homeowner and I'm talking about your car okay, has to get sold to pay that, that, that insurance, uh, that that hospital claim for any member of your freaking family, right? So it's just like are you kidding me? This is what they want for the american people. And then this thing was divulged. Let me finish with the economy, okay, because you were saying what the message is.

Speaker 3: 17:47

Michael Bloomberg came out, you know, vociferously, for Harris. The other day Now I lived in New York and wrote for New York. I had some disagreement, you know, worked for the city government, you know, and I've seen a lot of administrations in the New York City and I was policy director for Lower Manhattan Redevelopment after September 11th for the New York City Council. So I really worked very closely budgetarily, with oversight, with different city governments. I saw the outgoing Giuliani admin, which was corrupt and cronyistic as all hell. And then I saw Bloomberg. That Bloomberg was the most efficient manager of the fiscal New York City finances. He got so much corruption out of that government. He had zero cronyism and zero hierarchy. He didn't give a damn, if you know, you gave him a contribution or not. He basically wanted to see a government and he is, whatever, typically that. But you know, and I've known people who worked for him, he is such an efficient manager. His company is run so well. He ran New York City better than any mayor in our lifetime, by far, because it was. You know he is.

Speaker 3: 19:24

So when he looks at the economy and says Trump will tank the economy, this will be a disaster. You know, any business person Mark Cuban, who I've communicated with in the past, you know, is very, very clear on what this is going to mean. There are no financial experts who believe that. And yet people trust Trump on the economy. It used to be more than Harris. Now it's almost even. There's no reason to trust him at all on the economy. He has nothing. It's mind boggling. It's mine and we have.

Speaker 3: 19:58

And people are like and then this other step this is the thing we're working against. And then this other step this is the thing we're working against, jack, that is just just like. It's just like. Really, people feel the country is headed in the wrong direction, a vast majority. I saw this stat that no one could win this election with so many people who feel we're heading in the wrong direction.

Speaker 3: 20:26

Now I listened to that pundit and I say, yeah, well, we've never had an election against, you know, a convicted felon, a sexual assault, or someone who wants to abolish the Constitution and create, you know, a Putin-style democracy.

Speaker 3: 20:36

So you know his past comparisons, you know, are sort of a bit off the charts. We've never had somebody who has, you know, like Harris has, who has garnered the goodwill and endorsements of so many conservatives from the other party who have been diametrically opposed to many of the policies of the Democratic Party, and people like Liz Cheney, you know are saying this and Jeff Flake now, because you know they are concerned about whether we have a democracy or not or a Putin style dictatorship, as they should be. So they're looking at the economy and you know the tariffs is. It's just a tax on the working and middle class and removing, you know, any sort of to pay for more billionaire and large corporate tax cuts after the largest transfer of wealth upward to the wealthiest 1% in the history of modern civilization, which is what we've seen over the past 40 years in the United States, starting with Ronald Reagan. So you know, and he wants to, you know, continue it. But how many people are aware that we have the lowest unemployment rate in 60 years? That inflation?

Speaker 3: 21:56

is lower in the United States than other countries.

Speaker 2: 21:59

Right, you know, yesterday I talked with Grant Stern and we were talking about just how many people right in the beginning of this episode you talked about low information voters. I noticed something. I think it was early in this week, I think it was Monday. It was either Monday or Friday, I'm getting my days all jumbled up, but I went to an event to speak where Mark Osmak, who's running for Missouri State Treasurer, and then Eric Richardson and Fred Wellman. Fred Wellman was also there speaking. He and I talked on behalf of veterans there speaking. He and I talked on behalf of veterans and the average age of the people in that audience was probably about 75.

Speaker 2: 22:52

Now, these were people that for the most part probably because it's just woven into them they watched the 30-minute evening news. They might turn on the radio in the morning and get a little bit of the morning or midday news, but it's those short punchy bites that just hits the biggest topics of the day. And I noticed that when Fred was speaking and when I was speaking about some of the worst issues related to Trump don't get me wrong Everybody there knew Trump is bad and that Kamala is good. They knew that, but they had no idea about many of these issues with Donald Trump. Many of these issues with Donald Trump, because if you are only watching that short 30-minute segment per day of mainstream media, they don't talk about so many of these things.

Speaker 2: 23:53

So I left there just kind of sad that, wow, there are millions of people in this country who don't even, and maybe never will even know some of the worst things about this person that so many people are choosing to vote for. And so you know, I think there's a tendency for people when they hear low information voters I know I was guilty of it you immediately think you kind of unconsciously link low information voter and low IQ voter. But what I've found when I get out and talk to people, there are some very intelligent people, rock solid citizens who have contributed a lot to this nation, who are low information voters. And we've got to get through this election and if we do, we've got to find a way to start creating fewer and fewer low information voters.

Speaker 3: 25:04

Oh, that's music to my ears, jack. That really is what I work on with what I like to call evolutionary media advocacy the idea that using media, especially digital media, you know to help, you know explain solutions, to make it simple, to make it short, um, and you're absolutely right. I was with a young woman, uh, who was 19 years old, at a, you know, in university, a good, her father was a professor, and we were at dinner. It was my son's uh girlfriend, and we're at dinner and I said are you aware of the abortion law in Texas, in Florida, and, and, and, uh, arizona? And she's like no, she looks at my son, like is your dad really putting me on the spot like this? You know, yes, you know, and. And. And she says no, you know I'm, I don't have time to focus on politics, I'm focused on my studies. Now, okay, now, this is not. I don't live in a red state, but you know.

Speaker 3: 26:12

So this is happening to women in this idea, that that that you're caring about what's happening to people who are not you, when all you've got is your social media world and reputation, your personal life, your school life. It's. It is really hard, you know, and it's shocking, it's like out of sight, out of mind, low information. Voters and people are very busy and we have a lot of information and then we have a media that's driven by celebrities and sensationalism, because that's what gets the click. Yes, so the shortness of it. I just did a lecture on this the other day at a university about fake news and and the the shortness of attention span of people plays right into the sound bites. Look at gas prices, look at egg prices. You know, if I told you that, you know GN, you know that, that, that we have this perfect storm of, you know, gnp growth and low unemployment, and you know, and prosperity and real wage growth. It's like, try explaining what real rate real wage growth. It's like try explaining what real rate, real wage growth is. Yes, explaining that our inflation rate is lower than other industrialized countries because we've been managing our the Biden administration has been managing the economy better. I mean, people can't even remember what life was like four years ago From actually like. It's like, oh, you know, oh, why were gas prices like lower? For because no one was freaking driving. Because we were, because we had 15 percent unemployment right and we had thousands of people dying of covid every day, because half of them because trump messed up this whole response to it, and they're still. You know, and it's like. So try explaining. You know that inflation is lower than other countries, you know, or something complex, and this has always been the way.

Speaker 3: 28:19

The you know, I like to say the corporatocracy rules, jack. This has always been the reason why, you know, working in middle class Americans do not have across the board With responsive government that responds to our needs, which is that the you know, and I've written about economic issues and policy now for for more than 40 years. And when you get into the intricacies, you know they are complicated situations. Now, I know better than anyone how to boil something down into two minutes or 90 seconds. I mean, I've been doing that for you know, since since Web 1.0, days, really, literally since 1995, 96, when I launched the first Internet company. It's like it's really hard to. You know, you could get something into 90 seconds if someone's paying attention, but try getting it into 10 seconds, you know, to five seconds when that's all the attention they've got. Price of gas is up by this fall. That didn't take long. That didn't take long, jack, right, and so you get into. So so the and then there is a there's this neutrality business going on and there is this aversion to politics and civics, as though it was something dirty.

Speaker 3: 29:55

I like telling the story. I was trying to. You know, I did this whole campaign to restore our library hours after the recession, for a ballot initiative that was ultimately successful but took like three years and libraries were closed Monday for the first time. They didn't even close them during the depression. I mean, literally, library hours in the county went from 72 hours to 40 hours a week and it's like we can't do anything about it. We just don't. And I'm just like well, we can actually, you know, do we care about? So I went out and I was giving out this flyer in the schoolyard, in the parking lot that just said support this petition to get our county supervisors to put this on the ballot.

Speaker 3: 30:34

And someone's like what are you doing? Politicizing? You know, creating school is not about politics and you shouldn't be talking to kids about politics. It wasn't. I was campaigning for my campaign or someone else's campaign. I'm talking about keeping the libraries open and trying to let the students know that you know, what we do politically has an effect on our lives, right? And yet there are people who are like how dare you do that? So this is what you're talking about civics and engagement. And it's no wonder that politics is a dirty word and young people don't want anything to. Some people don't want anything to do it and they're low information voters because politics is dirty. The fact is, we pay taxes, we have a government that we elect and that we have an you know every time we go to the polls. That's our opportunity to make that government more accountable and responsive to we, the people.

Speaker 2: 31:36

Boy, what a distillation of the truth that it really is that simple. You know, jonathan, one of the things that and it's only been recently that I've kind of looked at this and put this all together for myself my in terms of following. I played around with Facebook nothing there. I'm on Instagram and threads Threads are doing all right. I did some stuff on TikTok nothing there.

Speaker 2: 32:13

And when I look at why is that, most of my followers on Twitter are over 55 years old Almost all of them are over 45 years old and I kind of got my foothold on X or Twitter through long form posts and it occurred to me about the only people with the attention span these days to read long form posts are the people in the age groups that follow me. Of course, that's not really something you can do on TikTok. Could what I do on Twitter would fail and fall flat on his face on TikTok, because the people who go there you either give it to them fast and short or they don't want it and entertaining, right and and entertaining, so it's um, I'm glad we've got people out there like David Hogg and the different age groups that people do identify with, but when we look at the future of this country. We have to accept that, year by year, we're going to be losing more and more of the people who have the longer attention spans, and that's kind of a spooky scenario to think about. So, as you said, we better get really good at delivering it in the format, in the length and in the entertaining way that minds are receptive to it.

Speaker 2: 33:58

And again, I really wanted to stick to this upcoming election, but I've got enough optimism to think that maybe we're going to get through this and that we are looking at a future of the country. But on that, let's dive into this. Let's look at I asked Grant Stern this question yesterday and I think I told him I was going to be asking it of each of the guests I had on this week how much of what Donald Trump has been saying in terms of threats and that kind of rhetoric. How much of that do you feel is legitimate and that he will immediately push through on, and how much of it do you feel is campaign rhetoric and nonsense?

Speaker 3: 34:56

I, you know, I feel it is. You know, it is very real and I don't think that it's rhetoric or nonsense. Right, I mean the, the, the. There were guardrails in the first administration, you know all you. Look at the difference.

Speaker 3: 35:22

Who was the first secretary of state, you know? I mean, yeah, the guy from Exxon started out and then we ended up with Pompey, who was a political hack, you know, and just capitulated to everything you have. You know he really tried to influence the military and now he wants to take, you know, mark Milley and have him executed for treason because he reached out to the Chinese premier after Jan 5th, his Chinese defense counterpart, and said if you see any, you know anything alarming, call me before you launch a nuclear counterattack and destroy the whole freaking planet of humanity. Well, that's treason to Trump. How dare he? He was the commander in chief and people go along and say, yeah, you need your generals to follow it's, it's, it's there. There are no guardrails. And in fact, I mean I like to remind people that Project 2025., on behalf of the Heritage Foundation, has is burning through like over $100 million to prepare, they have interviewed and they are ready to place more than 10,000 people to replace virtually every person in the US attorney's office who is prosecuting things for the DOJ. That's thousands of attorneys. Right, he's ready to replace total leadership at the nsa, the cia, the fbi, military intelligence, like every agency. They, you know, he's not going to do. He doesn't have time to do this research himself. He could barely read a freaking piece of paper. Right, he's, you know. You know, I do believe he's close to functionally illiterate. Oh, yes, absolutely, with his big sharpie, but, you know. But, but he definitely has people.

Speaker 3: 37:11

And if to get a job with project 2020, you know, in the administration, you've heard that in right, you were asked a question did Trump win the 2020 election? And if you do not say yes, you don't get a job. Right, it's really important to people understand Now you have the federal bureaucracy that he's going to replace all the federal jobs, the so-called deep state. He's calling them the deep state. These are people who work during his administration. Yes, all run by appointees he appointed and yet they became the deep state. Why? Because they upheld the law, law and order against him. Now, what what they're saying is we're not going to have anyone who's interested in the law.

Speaker 3: 37:56

This is all about the cult of personality and the power of the dictator. And if you are not on your hands and knees and licking his freaking boots, you don't get a job in this administration, right, and you and you see these suck ups to power. You see Vance, who has a Yale law degree, sitting there saying, yeah, they're eating the cats and dogs when he's, he was told by the mayor of Springfield, ohio that there's not a single report of that. He said well, I saw it on the internet. He's not that stupid, he's not stupid at all.

Speaker 2: 38:30

Right. You know, in the last election remember the in the final months and weeks leading up to the election, all we heard from Trump was about the caravans, right, caravans heading to after the election. We didn't hear anything else, nothing else about caravans, because it was all campaign bullshit. Now I agree with you wholeheartedly that he intends on fulfilling every promise of every threat that he's made, and that there will be even more as they come to his impulsive mind and there's nobody there to stop him and say no, that's not a good idea, as you said. No, that's not a good idea. As you said, he will have only enablers. I do think that how should, in that situation and again, it's one that you and I both, and every democracy-loving American hopes that does not come to pass? Should he find his way back to the White House or to power Now? I wouldn't be surprised if he made Mar-a-Lago the White House this time.

Speaker 2: 39:50

How should America respond in terms of and let me lead in with this I've been saying for about the the last week now, and I, when I write this, I feel this at the cellular level it's. It's that intense to get into a mindset now of I will not comply. I will not comply. Now, I have no idea how you feel about that. You may have a totally different take on that and I would love to hear it. But looking at history and having an understanding of what complying gets you, I don't think there's a good way either way. So it may just come down to one last act of dignity by saying I will not comply, and then it's a horrible end. But I think it would be a horrible end the other way as well. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 3: 41:07

It's such a difficult. Well, first of all, what all the experts on fascism are saying now is that Jeff Bezos is just despicable, and so is the owner of the L of the LA Times, for complying already, out of fear of what might happen, right, that that is the time. You know, the easiest time not to comply is not to capitulate to what I like to call. You know, trump's brown shirts, like Hitler had fascist brown shirts. They're the ones who soften up the territory, you know, build the. You know the hatred and you know and intimidate the election officials and the vote counting. So I think it's really important, you know, to be ready on election day and the election counting. You know, for this type of intimidation and after the fact, I think there's three scenarios. One is, which is that Harris wins by so much, which is what you and I are probably praying for. You bet we don't get into the trenches of them trying to steal, you know, the vote and create an insurrection, the you know. The second is that, harris, that it's a very close election, that Harris wins and that Trump alleges for, you know, a, you know vote of fraud, which he already is and it's, and there's, you know, there's.

Speaker 3: 42:37

I really hope that the Dems take the House, because it is a new House that's seated on January 6th, which is interesting. I wasn't. It's sort of weird, jack, because the House sits Do you know this? And the president stays the same till January 21st. So yeah, the new House comes in January 1st.

Speaker 3: 42:58

So, wow, jan 6th, yeah, so the House elections are really important and I have to feel we're going to be able to retake the House, because some of them were really close and they're not being permitted to, you know, to say that it was a fair election, which is just crazy. How is it, you know? Oh, your election wasn't fair but you elected me, you know. You know, republican member of the House, but you know, throwing out the votes in this state for the people it's just like, yeah, so so that's the other scenario. And then there's a scenario where he wins this election and there's no turning back.

Speaker 3: 43:36

Turning back, I think it's really, you know my, you know studying, you know Hitler there's a you know and his taking of power, studying Putin, and in Turkey, it's very hard to resist. I had a good friend of mine who's very progressive, very smart, but there's a level of denial that this will just be a pendulum swing for years and then people will have enough and swing back. He said to me, you know, it's like I'm not getting worried about it Cause you know, yeah, Trump may win, but four years from now, you know, we'll have another election and we'll replace it.

Speaker 2: 44:15

I keep hearing that same thing and I just shake my head. What is that? You know, I think you nailed it. I think it's just simple denial. I think the prospect of sitting with yourself and thinking about what it really means is just too frightening for most people is just too frightening for most people, I think, whether they choose, consciously or unconsciously, to enter that denial phase and just look at how things are supposed to go, based on the way things have always gone. I don't know which it is, but I do know that I hear that from a lot of people and when I hear that I think wow, I've heard you talk on so many issues related to this election where I think you really get this, but then they'll say something like that and I catch myself thinking I'm not sure you do really get this, because we won't. It's almost unthinkable to me that we would have another free and fair election four years after Trump came back into the White House. I just can't imagine a scenario where that happens.

Speaker 3: 45:36

No, if you take him at his word, it's not going to happen. I mean, he's saying you'll never have to vote again, I'll fix it so you won't have to vote again. He is grooming us for a fascist dictatorship. Yes, he's grooming the people. He is saying look, I told you and now I can do it. I can do it because I told you I was going to do it and now I'm doing it. It is.

Speaker 3: 46:16

It is really hard to see us In terms of your original question, which is a very you know the Vietnam War, where people who don't, who are conscientious objectives, could walk across the border to Canada. Yeah, this is the digital age and in the digital age, the national security state has powers which no dictator has tried in this country before. No president has used the power of the digital age to track every one of your movements and your smartphone and your freaking car and you and could put a do not fly list out so that you can't walk across the country. You know, leave the border or get on an airplane to go anywhere. You have to look at China if you want to see what the power of a dictator could be.

Speaker 3: 47:01

You have to look at what China is doing now in terms of its surveillance of dissidents and any criticism? The people China's putting in jail the freaking business people. China's putting in jail the university. You know the complete monitoring of every university professor for the slightest word of criticism. And you look at the lockdown that took place in China during COVID, where people were literally tracked and arrested, you know, not allowed to leave their homes and they were jumping out their windows and killing themselves. Yes, where food was delivered to your door and you couldn't go out because this is what the government said. I mean, this is the power in the digital age. So I wish I could be more encouraging, jack, and I'm sorry, you know, and I love you and your resistance and your spirit, but the time to resist is to. To work is now, and it's between now and january 6th.

Speaker 3: 48:06

You know if they're trying to steal this. You know this election and turn out and let them know that this. These are the periods for resistance. After the fact, it's going to be very, very difficult to put the genie of democracy back in the bottle.

Speaker 2: 48:22

And we are not as far apart on that as you might think.

Speaker 2: 48:28

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the time for resistance is now and in the time that has existed prior to now and I'm I will be the first to admit that I have no idea in terms of how it works for the nation as a whole or for Democrats, or for people who didn't vote for Trump as a whole.

Speaker 2: 48:55

I have no idea how taking the I will not comply attitude works out, what it achieves, what it doesn't achieve, and for me it is primarily kind of one of those last acts of dignity kind of things. And I think one reason I've been kind of trying to get people to foster that kind of attitude as I sit here now thinking about it largely, is if I can get them to go ahead and think about the future and go ahead and adopt that, maybe they will use that now, you know, step into that attitude that you think you might need later but that you really need to have right now, and find yourself feeling more confident and capable of what you can do in these last few weeks, as it were, and days before the election, and so I think that's where the real importance of that has been for me, is exactly what you outlined. As you state, if Trump returns to power, I don't think there is a way of responding that works out well for the people who resist Trump in this nation.

Speaker 3: 50:28

I, I, I don't, and that that's a pretty somber and sobering comment for anybody that's listening, and it's, it's sobering for me to even speak, but if we're being really honest about it, I, I just don't, yeah, so we don't disagree jack on that, yeah, yeah, and so it's such a sad state which brings me to, you know, let people know that if there's someone you know who's on mode to have that, this is the time to have. I mean, we're not we're the people listening to this uh, you know, are already voting for harris, but what some of us are not doing is having that uncomfortable conversation right with the 19 year old nephew or grandson or whatever granddaughter who's like. You know, I don't care, don't talk to me about politics, dad, you know we're great, our uncle, and and and have that conversation. This is how important I feel this is, you know, and and to the extent that we're able to give money to candidates for, you know, to, to buy that mindshare, it's a good time. I mean, you know Colin Alred beating Ted Cruz Olsen in Nebraska.

Speaker 3: 51:52

These are very close races that may determine the Senate. John Tester and you know I, you know I. So these are very close races and that's important too. Let me try to move to the positive as we close up here. Yeah, yeah. Something else is that, out of all this, you know, visualizations, I think, are sort of important in terms of what we focus on and what's possible that this we really can win the House and take the Senate, hold the Senate, I mean, especially if Cruz and Nebraska flips. I think there's definitely. There really is a chance that the polls are underestimating what people are going to do, cause I like to tell people how many 18 year, 25 year olds do you know who are going to pick up the phone and talk for 20 minutes to a pulse Right, right, right.

Speaker 3: 52:55

Are you kidding me? I can't even get myself to pick up the phone and talk to me.

Speaker 2: 53:00

No, I can. I can vouch for that with my kids right, right, okay.

Speaker 3: 53:07

I mean, I hired this young woman, uh, who was going off to college for an internship, and she was training me to only contact her by text, you know right the idea that, even though I'm paying her, don't expect her to pick up the phone because she doesn't do it. Was I paying you?

Speaker 1: 53:31

Yeah, I get to determine which way we so that's true.

Speaker 3: 53:34

Yeah, that's one thing. The other is that I love where Liz Cheney is going, you know, and Harris is now. The fact is, your vote is secret and I do believe that there are women who are being bullied by their you know husbands, domineering, abusive husbands, and if you think about them picking up the phone in the kitchen with a jealous husband, you know a husband. Who are you talking to? You bet? Oh, I'm talking to the poll. You're going to tell them to. You know you're voting. If anyone calls your polls, we're voting for trump, you know, and they may be like saying that and then they will vote the other way, and I do think I do have to feel there's a few million women like that. And then we have the poor, the ground game, and we have the puerto rican offense and people like bad bunny who's a huge star, by the way, I mean nice, my, the, my young people I know who are into hip-hop, love bad bunny, right, jennifer lopez and those other people and and it wasn't even just the, the, the on the garbage. I don't know if you heard what they said about you know, opening your arms and letting them in and come in, and you know, just having babies. I mean, it's like every bad racist stereotype. Yes, it's going. So I think that's going to, you know, hopefully, shift people who are not necessarily answering the polls. And I've been fearful, and you know I wrote in the Washington Post about how the polls underestimated Trump in the past. I do, you know, I have heard that they don't underestimate, you know that they they correct or self-correct and they're looking at it differently. But there there is a sense that that the the polls hopefully, um are are underrepresenting Harris, uh, as terms of what the final is, and that there will be a good amount of turnout and should that happen and should we win, it will also likely mean that we, we uh, hold the Senate and win the house and that there are, you know that, that you look at Ohio and women and the abortion issue, that that that you know that. And if we do that, I feel that Harris is going to be a stronger president than Biden has been.

Speaker 3: 55:59

When it comes to the Department of Justice, yes, and when it comes to the judiciary, I mean Biden, you know, did get elected and he has managed the economy very, very well. But his greatest weakness and I go back to the Clarence Thomas hearings with Anita Hill. Most people forget. He was chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee in 1989 with Clarence Thomas and he's the one who decided not to have the women who were corroborators of Anita Hill testify before and he didn't have to. He was the chair. He had absolute power over who said it and he wanted to appease reach across the aisle. His biggest weakness is that he's done that and it could be a very bad weakness should Trump win because of the department. You know who he put in in Merrick Garland Harris is a prosecutor. She will have a great DOJ and she also is unlikely to play this game.

Speaker 3: 56:54

Oh, we have to keep the filibuster because of what they might do next time. The fact is, the Supreme Court has revealed itself to be supremely corrupted and bribed fixers for the Republican Party. That's why they were chosen. They were chosen with, for the first time, without a national you know, national Lawyers Guild. You know approving of their records, because they've always and and and approving of their experience and and this is not your grandfather four members to the Supreme Court. And that could be done, and the filibuster done, by a majority vote of Senate, approved by the House and the White House, four people come in.

Speaker 3: 58:08

Frankly, I'd like to see it February 15th and the idea that, oh, they're going to do the same thing in the future. Well, guess what happens in the future? Because this gerrymandering, this disgusting voter suppression laws, voter ID laws and gerrymandering with absolutely no basis for the voter suppression laws, no example of people voting illegally, you know it. Just we roll that back. And the fact is, when people show up to vote and then we make, by a majority vote, dc and puerto rico states, we had four senators, seven members to the house, to the congress, and you know what? The we, we, we flush the minoritarian gop, fascist, rule and power out. We flush the turd of this, of this, this, this cancer on our democracy and let's let the gop rebuild as an actual conservative party who respects democracy, respects law and order, you know, and respects the right of all Americans to vote freely and fairly and the right of women to exercise freedom over their reproductive choices and their health choices.

Speaker 2: 59:32

Kamala Harris in the White House that we have an obligation to respectfully start leaning hard on President Harris immediately to do these things. Not that we think she won't, but we've seen what a wait-and-see approach can get us and we need to make all of our voices known loud and clear, just like we have prior to this election, that we voted for you because we want these things done. They have to be done. We all know they have to be done and you cannot start thinking, reach across the aisle immediately before these things get taken care of. Are we kind of on the same page with that?

Speaker 3: 1:00:33

Absolutely, and I do believe she will be very different and better than Biden. She is a lawyer, you know. She was a prosecutor. She understands voting rights and what's been done, the assault that there there has been on that, and I think she, you know there's no wait and see there's no good. Well, let's see how they decide this. We know how they're deciding. I mean their. Their decision in Virginia a few days ago, the Supreme Court. Their decision in Virginia a few days ago, the Supreme court. Right, I need to. You know there's a federal law that says you can't purge voters within 60 days of election. They said, oh, screw that law. State rights, let's talk state rights right now. Are you kidding me?

Speaker 2: 1:01:16

Sheldon Whitehouse posted something last night which stood out for me because it was Sheldon Whitehouse who used the word illegally. The Supreme Court just illegally approved of a continued voter purge. He didn't use that word lightly. We are absolutely watching a corrupt SCOTUS in motion.

Speaker 3: 1:01:43

Yes, we are, and there is no and in this site and, and you know, and Leonard Leo, when they called him in to testify to Congress with a lawful supleener, basically said this you know right, yeah, you don't have, you don't have the power, make me right, make me, I'm a billionaire, make me, and it's just. They really are shameless and there is no legislative or constitutional rationale or barely a need for that constitutional rationale. So, yes, I think Harris will be very strong. So I wanted to present that positive sign we could turn this around, present that positive sign we could turn this around. Harris has promised and I love the way she talks about you know, she will be the president for all Americans. She will make decisions. She will. So will our Congress and Senate. So will our Congress, the House and the Senate will make decisions. That better you know the lives of the American people. She has some wonderful offers on. You know, policies on the table that are clearly spelled out, and I think Mark Cuban is a fantastic financial advisor and I've had some communication with him about them. You know, let's show what we could do. So she will do that.

Speaker 3: 1:03:00

But that doesn't mean she's going to pretend that virtually every Senate members, you know, republican member of the Senate, and the Congress, you know, has voted, you know, voted not to certify the election because they were intimidated and literally voted to throw out the votes in the will of our democracy. And you can't believe that you're going to reach across the aisle and come to some sort of agreement with people who say, you know, we don't even recognize your government, right? You know you can't, you can't. So the the at the same time, the voters who represent those people, at the same time, the voters who represent those people, you know those people represent the citizens in red states, the citizens in purple states, all.

Speaker 3: 1:04:10

But that doesn't mean Biden made the mistake, because his collegial Senate background, the collegial from the old days that he remembers and you know, when you're older, you know, you remember the way things used to be. It's very hard to say at his age, to say you know what. This is a different world and let's get ready for it. You bet so so he, so so so her new generation, a new thought, I think. And I believe that the Republican legislators and the ones who are cowardly in the House and the ones who get reelected two years from now, I think there will be some very interesting primary challenges.

Speaker 2: 1:04:44

I think so will be some very interesting primary challenges?

Speaker 3: 1:04:45

I think so too, and let Liz Cheney, you know, lead that voice and say okay, now let's go for X, y and Z, because we don't like A, b and C that the Democrats are doing. Bring it on Wonderful, you know, maybe they, you know, let, let, let. But they need to replace these people who have decided that their role is to lick the boot of the fascist dictator. And we and there is no reason to expect anything different from the Republicans in the House, I mean what they've done with the House in the last two years not passed any laws and just had these hearings against science, hearings against public health, hearings, you know again, you know, just trying to fabricate evidence, you know, in collusion with Russia we haven't even talked about Russia, right, these people are traitors to the, you know, to to the national, you know, you know, and some of them are really being paid by Putin, indirectly. Certainly Ron Johnson in Wisconsin, you know, so, so, so, so, and probably Rand Paul as well, so, so so.

Speaker 3: 1:06:05

The idea that that these are people who are going to compromise and going to be legislators. That's why we have to end the filibuster, this idea that we are reliant upon them, and and we want to correct the imbalance of by of the Electoral College by adding a few states that you know, could you know, hope and to this and the imbalance created in the Senate where land votes, where we add some, you know, some more voters to sort of dilute that disparity, where we have, you know, senators representing 41 percent of the country. You know, deciding what laws are are acceptable to our country and nominating people to the Supreme Court. We have the mechanism to change everything next January, this election, and I do believe that's possible, and what I want to leave listeners with is a visualization that we're going to achieve that.

Speaker 2: 1:07:07

Absolutely. I believe that I've been so intent on doing two things that both come under the framework of one thing, and that is presenting in a blunt, hard to look at, hard to listen to, truth about what could take place and about what the stakes are, and about how real the threats are and how easily we could lose this race, while simultaneously holding in mind that we can absolutely win this race. You know that's it, because we can. That's the thing. That's. That's not, uh, blowing smoke up somebody's ass. That's the truth. Yep, we can win this election.

Speaker 2: 1:07:58

Oh yeah, and for the reasons we've discussed on this episode and I was saying this all year long attitude, mindset was going to come down to. In some ways, it was going to decide the election, because if you've got somebody who's got a mindset and attitude, that's probably not a vote. If you've got somebody who feels that fire burning in the pit of their stomach and who's zoned in on what the consequences are, but also the benefits, that's probably a reliable vote. So I know this is your second episode with me and I think you've covered some really critical issues. You've talked about them in a way that's more current. With what? What are we five days before the election now. Yes, we are Something like that, and here's what I want to do. I want us to get together again in the future, but I want the episode to just be us expressing the glee and joy of having gotten over the hurdles that you and I talked about on the prior two episodes.

Speaker 3: 1:09:25

We're due for a I'd love to keep with you and I'd love to add, you know, as we're facing a new administration, to talk about what the Department of Justice could do Right. And you know, on the, you know, in a few weeks, you know, or should there be, you know, an assault on the electoral process after Harris wins. You know we could, we could, discuss that as well. You know what the Department of Justice can or could be doing, you know. Yeah, but yes let's do that, Jack.

Speaker 2: 1:10:00

We will and I want to. Before we go, I want to throw out for people who might not know or who have just kind of become a follower recently. In the beginning, I mean, we we always got along, but in the beginning we we butted heads over Merrick Garland quite often. That's when I was still of the he, the he's going to do this. We give him time and you know we'd banter back and forth but fortunately, like many have, there came a point in time and I can't remember the date, but I had a date already established in my mind. Okay, I'm going to back and support and elevate as many people's hope as I can up until this date, and when I get there, if he hasn't done anything, then game's over and I'm going to start calling him out. And that date came and went a long time ago and ever since, uh, I've been making sure that people are aware that we almost certainly don't have the guy in there that we hoped we did.

Speaker 3: 1:11:23

Yeah, I know. I really hope that Biden has enough influence, or the administration has enough influence, that we are able to protect the election counters and the election officials and certifiers through this process. And I've heard that local law enforcement has been good about that Good and that the thankfully the these are in the purple cities that they're going to be trying to steal and intimidate the votes. We're talking Atlanta, we're talking Philly, pittsburgh, milwaukee and Detroit, because there are a lot of black people there and say, oh yeah, come right in and intimidate these, these, these election officials, so hopefully the vote will be counted in the Department of Justice. Marshals deployed the way RFK deployed. Marshals, indeed, I do too that they should be at the polling places, you know, or soon after the polling places, to come and secure the election. You know, like literally when the polls close here they come to. Let's protect these sites you got it and make sure nobody intimidates people and let's protect the poll workers coming in and out.

Speaker 2: 1:12:46

Where can people find you, Jonathan?

Speaker 3: 1:12:49

Oh, they could find me at the StopTrumpDictatorshipcom page. Fantastic the videos. We have the bio and share the videos that you see there, and they could donate because we'll be running ads right up until election day in the swing states that we think will get people's votes.

Speaker 2: 1:13:11

Wonderful Jonathan. I love you man. Thank you for coming on the show and let's just plan on an optimistic get together in the future.

Speaker 3: 1:13:23

I look forward to that, jack. All right, jonathan, bye-bye, bye-bye, we'll see you next time.