Speaker 1: 0:01

All right, pam, many people will know you when they see your face and they hear your story. But for those who haven't, this is Pam Hemphill, and she was one of the people in attendance at the Capitol on January 6th which resulted in a trespassing charge, if I'm correct, and I'm just going to kind of go from that moment. But the question I'm going to ask you, pam, can you share a little bit about your involvement prior to that day in terms of I'm guessing you were a Republican?

Speaker 2: 0:47

Yeah, I've been a Republican all my life. I voted for Obama, though I didn't tell my family. Yeah, but I was never really involved in politics. I was a retired alcohol and drug counselor so I was more into reading books on addiction and helping people in that area, so I had no business getting involved in politics.

Speaker 1: 1:07

Okay, Well, that's interesting because I find that to be the case with really a lot of voters. You know people who are online every day and who are eating and sleeping politics, I think, have this illusion that everybody is like that and that's just not the case. Most people are working, going about their lives and then every four years, an election comes around and they look to see who the candidates are and vote. Yeah, they all go watch Fox News, Right, right? Well, let me ask you, was that a channel that you did watch from time to time?

Speaker 2: 1:50

Oh yeah, and Gateway Pundit, all those right-wing media. That's all I ever watched.

Speaker 1: 1:56

Okay, because the Democrats won it. How much looking back did that shape your opinion and your views in terms of you going to the Capitol that day?

Speaker 2: 2:15

Well, a lot of it. To be honest with you, I have a family that I've trusted and they're schooled in politics I'm not, so I would rely on their information. And they read schooled in politics. I'm not, so I would rely on their information and what they read books, you know, and I didn't know about the disinformation warfare and I don't think they do either, but that's mainly what had happened. I had relied on them and, of course, all the people around you and mega. I didn't know it was a cult. At the time, of course, I didn't even had no clue. You don't see that when you're in it, but they're gaslighting you all the time. Of course it started with Trump Fake news. It trinkles down and when you go to them with any fact, right away, well, where did you read that? Who told you that? Don't listen to them. They're telling you wrong information, you know.

Speaker 2: 3:09

Right so you don't know who to believe Right.

Speaker 1: 3:12

And we spoke a little bit on the phone, you and I last week, and I think I mentioned I was born and raised in rural Trump country and I moved back here about 20 years ago. So it's where I live now. So I absolutely understand that environment. It's tough when you are surrounded by the people. When you go to the bank to withdraw some money or you go to the grocery store or whatever the case may be, the people you are interacting with are all of the same mindset. There's a lot of social pressure there, if nothing else, to conform. And when you look back at that, pam, on that January 6th, if you were there again and you didn't have the knowledge that you have today in other words, you hadn't been arrested, you hadn't been charged, you hadn't served time do you think that it would probably unfold the way that it did all over again because your mind had been programmed by the people around you in such a way that it was really the only outcome for you?

Speaker 2: 4:40

right, you get all the information was coming from them and you lose your critical thinking. You really do, because the gaslighting is so strong that what you're questioning them is shut down right away. It's just automatic. And I was so naive, in a sense where very trusting, why would I question people with two PhDs? Why would I question Giuliani? Why would we question a president? They wouldn't lie at that extent that the election had been stolen. I mean, they might fudge it here or there, little white lies, but not something that big to get that many people out there believing them. So it was very easy to fall into all this propaganda and disinformation, because you're really just walking around like most people. Why would I question you? Jack, I've got to know you, right. I've listened to some of your posts and now I find out that you've been lying about everything, right, okay?

Speaker 2: 5:59

You know, because you don't really think about checking on people. You take them firsthand for what they're sharing with you and they're more educated than you, right especially me. You know in politics I you talk to me about addiction.

Speaker 1: 6:14

I'll know if you're lying about something, but yeah, it's you you brought up something that I I think is to kind of highlight for people you mentioned. Why would I question two people with PhDs, for example and there are, or were, just as many intelligent people with credentials on the right who were saying the things that led you to think, hey, let's go to the Capitol on the 6th, as there were smart people on the left telling Democrats the opposite message. So I think sometimes it's easy for Democrats to think, well, it was just a bunch of idiots, so why would you listen to idiots? But the point that you are making?

Speaker 1: 7:13

There were ample smart people, lawyers coming on television, people telling you this was legal, that it was the only way and that this had to happen, that Trump had not broken any laws or he could do this, and I really wanted you on for that reason alone. And I know to people who are regular listeners of my podcast they might be thinking, no, but Jack, what are you doing? You are making excuses for them, and that's not the case at all, understanding of how people like you were so easily led to this moment, and that not everybody who did this was some evil simon bar sinister from underdog, you know, and working in an evil laboratory that there were good bill-payinging Americans who trusted smart people and wound up making decisions that cost them.

Speaker 2: 8:32

I think we all are vulnerable to this For an example on both sides, and we need to be careful. I go along. I can go along with Democrats listening to everything they're sharing, but now I research and I learned that from the Democrats, though I got to tell you Because when I started my day, six gaslighting space when I got away from MAGA the difference you both sounded the same. You did you both. Both of us are wanting to turn this into a communist country. Right, both parties are doing the same thing and I'm going oh my God, what's going on here? But the difference was you brought in receipt. You didn't just put out something like the election was stoned. If the Democrats believe the election was stoned, still the difference they brought evidence.

Speaker 2: 9:27

Okay, that impressed me. It was no longer just throwing out opinions of what people were saying. It was really backed by research. And that's what I'm doing now. Like they're putting out there that Trump wants to take away the Social Security, so I put a post up today that I want that verified. That's scaring people. Don't be putting out anything that can't be verified. I'm really careful now, especially after reading the book. You know the danger within it. I've got to grab the book I don't have the name of it with me right now um just information right much out there, so we.

Speaker 2: 10:11

It's easy to fall into it and I didn't know that. I think both parties need to watch for this because I agree even the right could be coming in, acting like the left now and putting out stuff, and you think they're a Democrat. I mean it's a horrible, horrible war that's going on. Yeah, it's just folk.

Speaker 1: 10:34

Oh, yes, yes, barbara McQuaid.

Speaker 2: 10:37

Attack from within. Fantastic work.

Speaker 1: 10:40

That's a good plug for Barbara. Good deal.

Speaker 2: 10:44

Yeah, the Maggots are not taught to. Trump did this. It's all from Trump. It wrinkled down Fake news. I mean, isn't that what Hitler did right away? Sure, and you get around these people and they're so nice, you know they're not racist.

Speaker 1: 11:04

What do you think Pam, had you have back then when you heard Julianne or you heard anybody that you found to have some kind of authority from the right, if you would have thought well but they're not providing any evidence of that or I'm going to check out and see if what they're saying is true would that have made a difference for you at the time.

Speaker 2: 11:34

Oh, big time. Yes, but it does not come to you to do it. It goes. I think a lot of it has to do with people that are listening to their family. I think it's our very good close friends or spouse, somebody they're trusting.

Speaker 2: 11:52

And we all get into that place. It's hard to say to somebody I don't know, where are you getting this information? We just don't want to hurt their feelings. You know sure or wrong to both and we go along by listening to people we trust and unfortunately they may be. They may be being honest with you from what they learned, but we need to ask them okay, where's this resource, where's the source? Who? Where did you get this information? Let me look at it. You've got to be more of a detective today.

Speaker 1: 12:28

Well, just within my own I was thinking about this this morning, looking forward to this talk with you Just within my own home, I was thinking back. In the last couple of years, there are two times that we have called and made an appointment with a certain doctor for the children based on the recommendation of a family member who is not a doctor. Now you know you think, okay, well, that's my dad or that's my sister and you know she's a nurse and we trust them so much that we trust our children's safety and well-being up on the recommendation of a family member who, if you look at it objectively, you go. Well, they're not really in a position to judge how good a doctor is or isn't, but I called a doctor based on their recommendation. And that's what I want to do.

Speaker 1: 13:35

I want voters, I want independents, I want Democrats to be able to, rather than just going to that default. Oh, they're idiots, they're stupid. They should have known. I want to put this in a context where they can see how easily it could have been them in the same circumstances. And, like you said, we all need to practice critical thinking and looking for the references or the sources, or even inside of our own head questioning is that really true? So let's talk about, because I think maybe this is what you are most well known for, and that is rejecting the pardon from Donald Trump. Now, what was the charge? Was the original charge that you were prosecuted on trespassing?

Speaker 2: 14:40

passing. There were actually four charges. I don't remember them all. They're kind of standard, but mine was picketing and parading.

Speaker 1: 14:56

The lowest misdemeanor you can receive. It was the lowest charge, okay, and what was the sentence or what was the punishment for that?

Speaker 2: 15:04

sentence, or what was the punishment for that? Well, it was up to six months, but the prosecutor recommended 60 days and three years probation. Because I have no criminal background. I've never been arrested. I've been in recovery 45 years. Congratulations, my background was good.

Speaker 1: 15:24

Now where did you serve that 60 days. Where did you serve that 60 days?

Speaker 2: 15:30

oh, that was in dublin, dublin prison in california, but they've been shut down because the warden had affairs with the women yes, and there was a big drug bust in there. You can look it up. I was in one of the units with lifers the worst unit and Mrs Good news Biden pardoned the lady that saved my life. She really did.

Speaker 1: 15:54

Is that?

Speaker 2: 15:55

right, michelle West. She was in there for life and she was a beautiful black Muslim lady. But she said to me no, misdemeanor, and I've been in this prison for a long time. She'd been transferred once, but she'd been there a long time. You can't be here. What's really going on? Tell me that you're. I said I'm telling you I'm a misdemeanor, I'm 60 days. Nobody comes here. With 60 days, you got to have five years or more. It was 95% cartel women with big drug butts, wow, murder and you name it. But she found out about me and apologized. The women were going to put drugs in my room and I could end up with a four-year sentence to get me in trouble.

Speaker 1: 16:44

Sure.

Speaker 2: 16:44

But she had clout. She told those women I think she told them you better back off a path. And uh, because she wanted me to get out and make sure people were signing her petition. You know she's petitioning to get out, sure? What about me sending you some money or something? No, no, I don't need no money. Just help me get my petition signed. You wouldn't give that food to a starving dog, but that's prison.

Speaker 1: 17:13

That's just the way it is. What happened with your mindset and your attitude while you were in prison? Had you already, in your mind, accepted responsibility before you went, or did that happen while you were serving your time?

Speaker 2: 17:32

No, it's not like people think. Since you go to prison, you see a bright light. I've seen the light and now I'm changed. No, most people that go to prison never come out changed. You move into a survival. You just learn to survive and take it. I had to take it a day at a time. I focused only on the television. I was like in a zone, a zombie, not feeling anything, not thinking about anything but reading books, keeping my mind sane because I'm claustrophobic and I'd never been in a prison. I've never been in jail.

Speaker 1: 18:08

Sure.

Speaker 2: 18:09

It was fine for me. I've never been around criminals per se. I mean as a counselor. My clients were criminals but, you know, locked up with them. So it was in my age. So I just survived, I didn't and did a lot of praying.

Speaker 1: 18:29

Sure. So before you went to prison, though, had you already agreed in your mind okay, I did it, and so I guess this is the punishment.

Speaker 2: 18:43

Yes and no, I still had a piece of me hanging on as a victim. I didn't want to. I wouldn't have broke the law, I wouldn't have pushed berries, and this is all true, but the victim thinking was still there. I wouldn't have went inside the Capitol and I wasn't finding on it. See, you can hear it when I share this, because there was two officers at the door and I thought I'll get it on camera and ask them do I have permission to go in? Well, they shoved me in. Do you hear that little bit of victim there? However, the fact is I had no business being there. I should have left once the barriers, the bike racks, had been pushed, but no, pam's got to stay videotaped, you know. So you tend to look at the things like the way they talk. They're holding on to still not taking full responsibility, because it's very difficult to get to that point to admit where you were wrong and get everybody else out of the way.

Speaker 2: 19:47

Well, if the officer hadn't done this, or would they open the doors? No, they didn't open the doors. We know that, but they come up with something and that's what I was doing. It wasn't until Ryan Samsel he's the one with the red cap, and Epps was whispering in his ear. Do you remember him?

Speaker 1: 20:04

Yes.

Speaker 2: 20:05

Okay, and he pushed the barriers and knocked down that female officer. When he was in jail, 8-way Pundit put out an article that he lost his whole eyeball. The whole thing had been taken out. So I knew his girlfriend. Everybody had been calling me at that time. I got a hold of her and his lawyers. I found out it wasn't true. That's what my white light was the fact that this man actually had lied and made over $40,000 on his gifts. That didn't go that day and I take this information to my mega ex-face telling them what happened, what I've learned. And they yelled at me. I said I don't know who you've been listening to. His girlfriend's not telling you the truth. And then I brought another staff and the same thing happened and finally they got rid of me and started a smear campaign Damn, you're against this, you're not listening to the truth. What's happening with you? And they started calling me a bad and all kinds of names.

Speaker 1: 21:03

But I don't know what was going on with?

Speaker 2: 21:07

this when you find out the facts yourself and it can't be denied that he had lied and then you find out all of them are lying, little by little. When I started my J6 gaslighting space, the sedition hunters came in with receipts. I said, oh my God, I've been listening to all this stuff, believing that the government had been against us that day. I'm laughing now, but it's so real when you're in it.

Speaker 1: 21:37

Right.

Speaker 2: 21:38

But even now, though you present them with facts, they're not facts, and they don't want to hear it.

Speaker 1: 21:45

What's been the response to you? For example, refusing the pardon and showing that symbol of I reject this, I'm not a part of this anymore. What's been the response? Do you fear for your safety?

Speaker 2: 22:06

Well, I've had a lot of smear campaign going on. You know I've been pushing back for a year and a half so I've been kind of used to it. Oh yeah, Some say, well, you don't deserve one. Anyway, I hope they put you back in prison.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Sure.

Speaker 2: 22:22

You know, I've gotten a hold of the office. It's called the Office of the Pardoned Attorney. We've texted them, we've written them. We've texted them, we've written them, we've called them. Nothing but senator um rush r-i-s-c-h. He's a republican here in idaho. I got a hold of them and they're pushing the paperwork through the doj. See what happens. I haven't heard anything back because I have a legal right to refuse pardon. But refusing the pardon, I think you may understand it's hard to explain. I only have eight months left of probation, and why even bother to take the pardon? Or don't take the pardon? Because for me, the judge gave me two months and three years prison. I pleaded guilty. Because I was guilty. I need to finish my sentence For me, no, not for me or everybody else out there.

Speaker 1: 23:18

Yes.

Speaker 2: 23:22

This is for me to feel like I made my amends for ever being there that day, and it's important to me. I hope that I can do this. I'm praying I can do this. Get back on probation. I'm a little afraid, though, jack, because they might give me a PO. They could be pretty tough on me because my probation has been nothing no UAs, no visits. They just said we won't even care about you until you break the law. The only thing is I can't leave the state without permission, but they gave me permission when I needed to leave the state once. I don't carry a gun and never have my whole life. I don't use alcohol and drugs and I don't break the law you know speeding ticket, so being on probation but they can make it rough for me if they wanted to. They can have you do UAs every day, see you every day, without announcement. So I'm a little worried, but you know what That'd be okay. It would still be okay. I don't want anything to do with Trump and they're trying to rewrite history.

Speaker 2: 24:21

That January 6th was a peaceful protest. I was there. It was not peaceful, jack. I kept trying to put out my video. See, I'm on the other side of the Capitol. I didn't even know the riot was going on on the other side. I didn't even know there was another side. I didn't even know the transfer of power was going on. That's it. I didn't know. It's embarrassing to share that.

Speaker 1: 24:47

I should have been moved. Well, I'm glad that you are, because and that's one thing I admire about you when we don't know something, our impulse is kind of keep that to ourselves. We don't want to look dumb, but there are so many people in so many areas of life who are in that same situation, who make a decision that works out poorly based on some simple things that they didn't know, they weren't aware of, and so for you to say you know, I didn't even know about the transfer of power thing, I was just there to do my thing because the people that I was associating with said we're going to the Capitol Is that kind of how that played out for you?

Speaker 2: 25:45

I'm sorry I could have missed the last.

Speaker 1: 25:46

I'm sorry, couldn't miss the last. Is that kind of how it worked for you that you didn't go because you were so caught up in the specifics of what was happening? You went because, basically, the MAGA people you were hanging around with said this is wrong. He won that damn election. Let's go to the Capitol.

Speaker 2: 26:08

Yeah, but let's go to the see. The reputation of Republicans is they leave the Capitol cleaner than when they got there. Right, they are people of law and order. No way, I had just had surgery, I had stitches. Was I going to go anywhere? That I thought. And of course, my family. They would never put me in harm's way. They're the ones that gave me the gift to go there.

Speaker 2: 26:34

See, when I get there, trump's talking and I can't get through. There's too many people, it's too late. It was 1030. And I thought, well, now what Is there more speakers. I missed everything. And they're talking about. Trump is going to go to the Capitol. I thought, why is he going to go to the Capitol? He just had a talk. And then I thought, oh well, maybe he's going to be meeting with senators and people and then they're talking or something. So I was excited because that was what I wanted to do with videotape. I was live on Facebook. I had lots of followers in Boise, idaho. But yeah, you're not thinking that somebody's going to be. But now we know Trump planted and we know the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys.

Speaker 2: 27:15

God, that's why I get so angry. They put this innocent people I'm not saying innocent, but people like me that are not knowing what's going on. We're expecting a holding signs and screaming, but we're not going to harm anybody. That's not even going to happen. It. I mean, I could see if somebody came to the to us and started to attack us.

Speaker 2: 27:40

The proud boys were there to protect, right right I mean, I'm so night thinking, I think, like a lot of us that went there with the same idea I did, and then this happened. It's like you're excited as a five-year-old to go to Walt Disney and then you get there and somebody blows it up. That's what it felt like. My God, this was going to be a great day walking around meeting people, and then they go and start pushing bears and pushing officers. It's like what you know, you didn't go there for that. A lot of people did not go there.

Speaker 1: 28:17

I heard you mention the state senator. I think it was. That's helping you and I wanted to point that out for the listeners or the viewers that a Republican senator is assisting you with your refusal of the pardon, getting the paperwork through and all of that.

Speaker 2: 28:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:38

Have you had any feedback from this senator that would indicate, one way or the other, what he thinks about Trump at this point?

Speaker 2: 28:53

way or the other, what he thinks about trump at this point no, just with this uh, I guess it's a top assistant is who all I've been talking to. Okay, I don't know how they work, you know?

Speaker 1: 29:01

right. I called him.

Speaker 2: 29:02

She pulled me back right away. Sure, here's, I had to sign a release and that they could help expedite my request faster through the DOJ.

Speaker 1: 29:13

Okay, so you are getting help through the senator's office and they're pretty much keeping it to. Okay, we are going to help you with this paperwork and we don't have much else to say. Okay, that's kind of what I thought might be the case. Okay, that's kind of what I thought might be the case.

Speaker 2: 29:46

What do you think now, this kind of taking it away from your sentence and the refusal of the pardon, and just looking at the current time frame, someone who used to maybe did you identify as MAGA at one point. Well, MAGA wasn't a name back then, okay, I mean not like you heard it. Sure, I just said that as a Republican that believed all the propaganda that the Democrats want to turn this into a communist country.

Speaker 1: 30:03

Fair enough, fair enough. So, coming from that previous mindset, what do you think about what Trump and his administration are doing now?

Speaker 2: 30:18

Well, I started feeling this a year and a half ago that we haven't and I know people don't like me using Hitler, but I don't care, I don't know how else to describe him. He is a dictator. He wants to be king. I did do a lot of research and I watched the documentary called the Family and they started the first prayer breakfast in 1953. Are you familiar with that?

Speaker 1: 30:40

I am. I've watched that. It's fascinating.

Speaker 2: 30:44

That's scary. Now I know they finally got their wolf king huh Trump.

Speaker 1: 30:49

Right Very dangerous.

Speaker 2: 30:51

And then, of course, where's that other book that I read, the Dangerous Case of Trump. It's taken a lot of research this one.

Speaker 1: 31:03

Oh yes, dr Lee Bandy Lee Fantastic book.

Speaker 2: 31:07

So we got a maniac that wants to be a king. I don't think he, I don't know. I think Elon Musk is worse than him.

Speaker 2: 31:15

I would agree, he's just golfing Do what you want. But now they got their pardons. All these proud boys and nosekeepers. Trump's got his own private militia. So when the protests start happening it hasn't happened yet, it's coming he can send them out. Do what they do. You know they start trouble and more violence. But all this stuff that's happening, oh yeah, Is the heritage. Family has had this all planned and they're. What is his name? Bolt, Russell Bolt, yes, yes, that was yes.

Speaker 1: 31:50

Yes, that was just confirmed. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:53

Oh God.

Speaker 1: 31:54

Yeah, that guy oozes evil.

Speaker 2: 31:58

He's the one in charge of all this, telling everybody you know, go do that, ask this, do this, and they're just doing it. They all got their own motors. They're just going along with it because of their benefit. They don't care what, they're just doing it. They all got their own motives. They're just going along with it because of their benefit. They don't care what they're going to do. It's horrible, oh my God.

Speaker 1: 32:16

So, speaking of the militia, because I know I don't know where it ranks among states, but I know Idaho has its share of militia groups, or maybe just what you would call kind of aggressive preppers, if you were to name it anything else what's the vibe out there among that community? Are they actively thinking in terms of, okay, at some point we're going to be called on again, and do you think they have a plan for that?

Speaker 2: 32:52

I do the Idaho Liberty Dogs back four years ago. They put out things that the Black Lives Matter were not going to come here and destroy our city. Well, they didn't. The Black Lives Matter were peaceful here in Boise, idaho. I'll tell you that I was there and they hate me, oh my God. And you know I was with Ammon Bundy.

Speaker 1: 33:18

Yes, right, yes.

Speaker 2: 33:21

So yeah, they're thinking they had been to one of their trainings and this is their plan B they need 25 people for a grand jury and they get the constitutional sheriffs to back them on this and they'll arrest an official, bring them to their grand jury, which is all legal under the Constitution, which is not. This is what they tell you and they believe it, especially Emmett Bundy, and then they'll try him for treason, and you know the penalty for treason, and I've got pictures because Emmett Bundy's family has been with Ivan Racklin, michael Flynn, of course, I've learned they've all blocked me. Oh God, but I'm speaking out about this. I don't care. Everybody needs to be warned that this is what's going to happen. It's going to come, and I think that could really help in one way for people to wake up and say these people are insane. They're going to do this. They have already. What is Trump going to say when?

Speaker 2: 34:25

they arrest one of the people he doesn't like, do you think he's going to say anything? Right, they're going to get away with it.

Speaker 1: 34:32

You just said something that I've been really pounding on the last couple of weeks, and that is I think there is a distinct possibility at some point for aggressive pushback from the Republican Party, but it's going to take a lot of pain for the voters in the Republican Party. First, I don't think there's much of a chance until that happens, but once their daughter or their mother or their father can't get admitted to the hospital or isn't getting paid this month or something along those lines, I don't think we're going to see much pushback, although my feeling is and I want to get your input on this my feeling is there's already some grumbling in the Republican Party. Aside from the hardcore MAGA people, just the everyday grocery shopping Republican people who go to work every day and don't belong to any particular group or militia I'm starting to hear some grumbling about some of the things Trump is doing. Have you experienced any of that?

Speaker 2: 35:53

No, I haven't, but you know, I read Heather Cox Richardson's book and she says in the past and the history, the Republicans are where they are now, but they did turn around. So let's hope You're right. Once it affects them personally just like an alcoholic that I've worked with until they hit a bottom themselves and it's really affected them so bad are they able to wake up. And that's what's going to have to happen. There's going to be a line that they're probably I hope will not allow Trump to cross, and it'll probably be the violence and using the military or something.

Speaker 1: 36:34

Right.

Speaker 2: 36:35

That's it when I was listening in a space last night that I had somebody was sharing, that they really think the military will not back Trump.

Speaker 1: 36:45

And I hope they don't. That's what's happening.

Speaker 1: 36:50

I'm glad to hear that, pam, because I have written that very thing myself. Look, here's how I see it playing out. If it goes this way, the nation as a whole not just Democrats, not Republicans all of us start to experience some really intense pain as a result of the acts of Donald Trump and military members start to get these stories of their own sisters, brothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, cousins, uncles, aunts, experiencing these horrible, upsetting encounters in life because of these mindless changes that Trump and company are enacting. That's not a military, in my opinion. That's not a military that is going to follow orders from Trump to get aggressive with US citizens. I think that is the point at which they say no, no.

Speaker 2: 37:59

They made an oath to the Constitution, not to one person.

Speaker 1: 38:02

Right and I say that as a former member of the armed forces, and I speak to a lot of fellow veterans. Not all of them, but many of them agree that when push comes to shove, the military will hold the line for the US Constitution and American citizens, and not a king or a dictator American citizens and not a king or a dictator. Pam, let me ask you this I can't help but think your experience and all of the years of engagement as a drug and alcohol counselor had to have proven very effective for you personally, especially in this transition with getting charged and serving time and now rejecting the pardon, because the central core of what I hear in everything that you've experienced is that you took responsibility, and that's such a big part of the alcohol and drug recovery, is it not?

Speaker 2: 39:12

Yes, step 10, when you're wrong, properly admit it. But I don't properly admit anything. But, yeah, getting honest with yourself is the first step to any recovery. Without that, no matter how many people are honest with you, you've got to accept that yourself. Yeah, I'm an alcoholic. Yeah, I am. Yes, I'm megan. Yes, I've been listening to this disinformation and I should have been researching, doing my own critical thinking, until you can get to that place is that I'm not going to be able to help you? I can give you all the facts that you want. And what do they do with that anyway, right now? Oh, I don't want to hear that. Oh, that's not true. The denial is so deep. But, yeah, my sobriety is number one and you know you want to sleep at night and I've got to meet my maker one day.

Speaker 2: 40:07

There was that little piece, that something in you that don't feel right when you're talking about January 6th back then. Yeah, I didn't want to push barriers. Yeah, I didn't want to go in. You know this little victim. Why did they give me two months prison? I never broke the law before. You know this little victim dialogue I had going on.

Speaker 2: 40:30

But see, when I went to see my therapist, that's what happened too. That was right after Ryan Sampson. He said Ms Hipple and I knew him for a long time because I still have issues with PTSD, with my childhood abuses Another horrifying story. There he said Ms Hipple, look at me, you were not a victim, you were a volunteer that day and I thought you've got to trust the person that's being confronted with you. And I trusted him and I left that night thinking I'm never going to go back to the end. Come on, I'm not a criminal, I didn't mean to do anything wrong, but he was right. He was right and I'm so grateful to the people that do confront me when I'm going on the wrong path, because those are the people I know care about me enough to be honest with me.

Speaker 1: 41:21

Absolutely. Have you had feedback from other Republicans who have had a change of heart or are at least looking at things more critically now because of your experience?

Speaker 2: 41:38

No, everyone I've tried to talk to, they don't want to hear it. They don't even talk to me. They just ignore me. You know, because I go to self-help meetings and sometimes they wear their Trump hat just to get even with me. Well, I got another one I'm going to wear. No, I haven't been successful with any maggots, in fact, right now, jack, just to be honest with you, one came in our space last night. I don't want to talk to you anymore because all you bring in is your disinformation.

Speaker 2: 42:11

you're trying to split us, and if you want to debate, that's different bring your receipts, but they don't debate they just argue, so I don't even want to talk to them unless they do have an open mind and I have an open mind to listen to them. We need to listen to them too. We're not all right about everything. Nobody is. What does Herbert Herbert Spencer say? He says what leaves a man in everlasting ignorance is contempt prior to investigation. They won't even investigate what we're sharing.

Speaker 1: 42:48

That's a powerful quote. That's a powerful quote, yeah, and I know we've been on here for a while and I don't want to keep you all day. In kind of starting to wrap things up, what was the biggest lie that you feel like rallied people for that movement? That you feel like rallied people for that movement? What was the persistent, over and over again lie that rings out in your head, as this is the one that probably got us to act.

Speaker 2: 43:21

I believe that saying that, well, of course the election wasn't stolen, but it was. The Democrats want to turn this into a communist nation Mainly communists, is what I heard and a communist nation, it learned. Sure, you know which is the biggest lie? It's so, oh my God, you know that's like saying Mother Teresa was communist. You know what I mean, right.

Speaker 1: 43:50

So would it be fair to say, then, that the result or the response that most people had to that lie thinking about this becoming a communist country was fear?

Speaker 2: 44:03

Yeah, and the deep state? There is no deep state. Right Project 2025 is the deep state. That is no deep state Project 2025 is the deep state.

Speaker 2: 44:12

That's a deep state, that is definitely, but there's no deep state, there's no DOJ, after nobody, oh my God. But they're creative, aren't they, these little con artists. Trump number one, that's what he said. He said they're coming after me, but they're really coming after you, pam. So? But I stand in the way. So now he's their savior and then, of course, the christian nationals. He's from god, oh my god. That one's just no, I don't think so. Keep god out of this place.

Speaker 1: 44:43

I was going to say I I heard you mention a few questions back. You said one day I'm going to meet my maker. Okay, so I take it that you have some sort of faith, right? So how does it feel then to see the abuse of religion that Trump and the MAGA movement uses to try and draw people in?

Speaker 2: 45:11

I kind of missed a little bit of what you were asking.

Speaker 1: 45:15

How does it make you feel that Trump uses the Christian, nationalist or white that whole theme and drapes it all around himself as though he's some man of god? How does it make you feel to to really know?

Speaker 2: 45:34

who he is. Think about it. That's like doing imagine what. You take a five-year-old well, let's even say eight years a young child and you're feeding them that there is a real monster in that closet and you better keep the closet door closed and the kid gets all scared. He doesn't even want to go in his bedroom. This is the same thing, this abuse that he did on these people putting their trust in him. It's horrifying. I wouldn't want to wake up in his head, but you know, it's just yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:13

Well, Pam, I want to thank you for the times that you've been willing to speak to me on the phone and I know we've had a time getting scheduled here and getting together, but we finally made it happen and I think you play.

Speaker 2: 46:29

Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1: 46:30

Oh, you're welcome. I think right now you are playing such an instrumental role in helping reshape things in that you take responsibility, and that's something we just aren't seeing from people these days. We don't see people come out and say you know what I was wrong. If these are the consequences, then so be it. That's not an easy thing to do and you've been willing to do that. Willing to do that and I'm sure there's always embarrassment associated with admitting things that you are ashamed of. That takes a lot of courage, but I think it's the kind of courage that we need and hopefully we'll see more people engaging in that kind of helps get people to listen. But, as we both mentioned before, I think before that time comes, we've got to feel the pain and, doing as we speak, I think we'll start to see a shift and that's where voices like yours are going to become even more important, people saying you know what? I was there, but I'm out now and I'm in a better place.

Speaker 2: 48:06

And so for that I thank you, pam. Oh, thank you, pam. Oh, thank you too. Yes, I don't know how to say it sometimes, but the peace I have now, it's like a big weight off my back. When you get honest with yourself, you don't have to be honest with anybody else, it doesn't matter. But when you're honest and say, yeah, I was a volunteer that day, it's like a. When I explain it, it's like you're breathing it in. It's such a great relief Because we all make mistakes, every one of us. There is not one righteous, not one, you know.

Speaker 2: 48:39

We all make mistakes and owning up to them is how are we going to improve or get better if we just stay in denial and keep lying to ourselves?

Speaker 1: 48:51

and then everybody what for People know that it's full of it you know Sure, and I think the answer to this question is obvious for most people. But how do you feel about the violent criminals being pardoned?

Speaker 2: 49:07

Oh, it's horrifying. No, no, god, yeah, I did a video because everybody was saying well, he may not release them. No, no, no, no. You don't know Trump. No, that's his message that the DOJ is weaponized against him and the J6ers. How could he keep them in there? Because, see, they didn't hit the officers. Remember, this is the propaganda. The officers provoked them, so their stories are lies, and he had to pardon them, otherwise his narrative would have been crumbled. Oh, trump, you didn't pardon everybody, so how can the DOJ be weaponized against the J6ers?

Speaker 1: 49:56

And that's a fantastic point.

Speaker 2: 49:58

It was for his good, not for the J6ers.

Speaker 1: 50:02

That's a fantastic point, pam, and I think it's one of those things that's kind of the elusive obvious. Yes, if he did not pardon everyone, then his whole narrative of the DOJ was weaponized. It would fall apart. That's pretty keen observation. You're spot on with that.

Speaker 2: 50:27

But we all think that Trump's like us. That's the mistake.

Speaker 1: 50:31

He's a dangerous narcissist.

Speaker 2: 50:34

He's not like us, he's not going to think about what's right for the country. He's not you or me. He's a dangerous dangerous another hit that's coming here for his own motives. Power is an addiction for him right now, but he needs money to have the power. He don't care about the money. He cares about that control, because he had none growing up, and so try to quit thinking that, well, Trump is like me. No, he's not. He's not like you. He's a very dangerous man.

Speaker 1: 51:06

And I don't know if you've been asked this question or not. What are your political views now?

Speaker 2: 51:17

Well, I voted for Harris. Okay, I'm a Democrat now I?

Speaker 1: 51:21

registered as a Democrat.

Speaker 2: 51:23

I should have always been a Democrat, being raised with Republicans. You're told back then too what?

Speaker 1: 51:29

lies, but I liked Obama but yeah, was a Republican most of my life. I'm a.

Speaker 2: 51:36

Democrat, and then in all the way with the Democrats.

Speaker 1: 51:41

I, too, have been a Republican most of my life. However, I voted for Obama in 2008,. So I didn't fit that typical mold of somebody who just, no matter what, you vote Republican. I've always been kind of a rebel in that sense, and I think you probably have too a little bit and you like to think for yourself. But here's the point that's so important even people who like to think for themselves, like you and I, can get swept up so easily in letting somebody else take over with the thinking, and then we do something that's not characteristic of us and we're going. How in the hell did that happen so?

Speaker 2: 52:29

yeah, that's why it's important to sit back and think things all the way through. Do your own research, be honest with you. Okay, I love what jack is sharing with me. He's telling me I should vote for this representative, but how do I feel about this representative? Right first, right and then, but sometimes we do need to trust other people's judgments because ours could be off. We don't have all the information yeah, yeah it's totally lose that trust.

Speaker 1: 53:00

You know, right, it's a. It's a balancing act, isn't it? Because you know, if I'm going to have heart surgery, I I don't want to be second guessing my cardiologist. You know he's been'm going to have heart surgery. I don't want to be second guessing my cardiologist. You know he's been to medical school. He specializes in cardiothoracic surgery not me. So yeah, there's a balance there. Pam, listen, I'm reach out to you again and maybe we will discuss kind of what's going on at the time, but I cannot thank you enough for joining me today and helping me kind of Thank you, I really appreciate you Jeff.

Speaker 2: 53:44

I appreciate you too. I appreciate that, Thank you.

Speaker 1: 53:47

Pam.

Speaker 2: 53:51

Yeah, we enjoyed what you put out there, thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 53:53

Well, I will talk to you again soon. Bye, bye.