Speaker 1: 0:00

All right, man. So life has changed for you, no doubt, and I've got some questions here. I tried to go through and come up with some questions that I haven't heard you ask a million times before. I don't know how close I got to that, but we'll see. First one I want to ask is what personal moment after January 6th has stuck with you the most, and and it could be something that happened in that day or or anything that followed- you know, man, um, there's been so many, um, there have been so many, I guess, each and every moment to me.

Speaker 2: 1:08

And what happened to my, you know, my colleagues on January 6th, incredibly grateful for the opportunities that you know that I've been able to take advantage of. Sure, spend more time with the family, because, yeah, I was an artonics cop.

Speaker 2: 1:26

um yeah, I spent 20 years with the dc police and my schedule was dictated by drug dealers, so there was, uh, you know, a lot of time spent away from uh friends and family, um time spent away from my kids missing birthday parties and and holidays and things that I think really only people that you know work in service of this country can understand and appreciate.

Speaker 1: 1:53

You bet I read where you've got four daughters. Four daughters, yeah, I've got two and I also have a son, so I don't want to leave him out. He'll be pissed. But you know they are what grounds me. You know, to a degree, and to only the degree that I've been able to read about you. I think we share it. In terms of our personality, our volatility level may be similar, and so it's good for me to have people in my life that ground me, because, prior to having a family and having kids, I've always said, when I was in the Navy and we went on deployment, I was so glad I didn't even have a girlfriend at the time, let alone a wife and kids man. That made it so much easier because I watched these guys who, a month into it, they're about ready to you know. So, yeah, how, how did being a narcotics cop in any way, shape or form, if at all, prepare you for that day?

Speaker 2: 3:15

Well, I mean, it certainly wasn't the first time that I had seen a violence. Um, you know, I had experienced that my entire career. Um, it wasn't the first time that I had seen people who have lost control because of the anger that they're experiencing in the moment. Just never to that magnitude, never so many people and never. You know, like I've been in a lot of fights. I've been in a lot of fights as a cop, but the vast majority of the time as a cop, you're trying to pursue somebody and put this bad person in a bad place. They're just trying to get the hell away from you. You know, I could probably count on two hands how many times people in my career actually turned and squared up to me and, you know, decided to bring the fight to me. This was that times. You know 15,000. You know, these people came there knowing full well that they were going to go toe to toe with cops and and they really did they took the fight to us.

Speaker 1: 4:23

Yeah, and I know full well that in those moments it's all about what's? The sensory experience of what's happening right now. So it's not likely that this happened during that. But after following this, was there a point in time where you're like, fuck, I can't believe I didn't get killed. I thought I was, it was over, it was all fucking done.

Speaker 2: 4:50

Yeah, no, I mean, I experienced like probably one of the I mean it was the most significant adrenaline dump of my entire life Like I was high as fuck on adrenaline for a week, yeah, and it really wasn't until that started to like wear off, that you start thinking about things like that. Um, sure you know, and and recognizing. And then you know, going back and like watching my body worn camera footage from the day, uh, and seeing like how significant and how savage the assault was, and then coming to find out that, you know, not only was I beaten, not only did I suffer a traumatic brain injury, but I also had a heart attack. You know, at the time I was 40 years old.

Speaker 2: 5:37

I'm in good shape I always have been and to you know, to learn that you suffered potentially life-threatening injuries at the hands of people over fucking politics, and then later come to learn that it was not just politics but it was lies. It was one person, one man, although calling him a man I think is a stretch. One man, although calling him a man, I think is a stretch. But you know, this one selfish, self-centered asshole lying to America and inspiring this madness that we all watched transpire on January 6th, right no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 6:59

Yeah, I mean, you know that Trump supporters are, you know they're not all. I mean, listen, you got the guys that are in the cult, and the cult is the cult, and you're not going to convince these people anything. And, quite frankly, I don't give a fuck too. The only thing I want to do is rid America of these cultist, fascist assholes. But when it comes to so many many Americans that were like, just voted for Trump because he's the, you know, he's on the Republican ticket, despite knowing full well that this guy is, you know, destructive and divisive, and that he is he revels in other people's pain. He revels in other people's pain and I think there's probably a lot of people that voted for him in the last election. They're starting to recognize the fact that he is devoid of any compassion or empathy, because they're suffering too and he doesn't give a shit.

Speaker 1: 7:55

Right. I couldn't agree more and I'm glad to hear you say that, because I've posted something along those lines several times and I get people that push back and go oh no, they're never going to fucking wake up. And I'm like I live in the middle of them, where the county I live in, eight out of ten voted for people or voted for Trump. Last time they're waking up, I see it. I interact with them. Like you said, not every one of them is the hardcore cultist Right. Some of them voted Republican just because they're Republican and people want to dismiss that. But we all understand that because we've all done that before you know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 8:39

I mean, you know, it's that old adage that you're constantly, you know, in American elections you're choosing between the lesser of two evils and so many Americans because there's no inspiring candidates, there's no one out there that, like, really makes me want to get involved. You're just, you know, aligning yourself with whatever party you think best fits your ideology and your perspective and you choose that candidate. And it's made us lazy voters. But it's also it's made our elected leaders incredibly and inherently lazy. And it's allowed this, you know they say that the culture war to to come about because people really don't give a shit about the issues anymore, the policies. They just want to. You know, they just want to express their anger at the other side because they believe that that's the, that's who's responsible for bringing me down or making my life more difficult, and it's the politicians that are feeding that. It is.

Speaker 1: 9:47

I know you've worked construction right, and I worked construction both in between my sophomore and junior year, my junior year, my senior year and then the first year year and a half after I graduated right.

Speaker 1: 10:07

So we've both kind of lived and functioned in that environment. I'm using this as an example because I know it's one you can identify with. At the end of a 10, 12-hour hot, sweaty-ass, sweaty ass, bust ass workday, the average construction worker is not going home and flipping on the news so they can catch up on the latest political happenings, right? You go home and have a cold beer, you know, peel your socks off and throw your head back. So, with so many people approaching politics like that, don't you think that it comes back to the way you vote is I'm a Republican, so I vote Republican. I'm a Democrat, so I vote Democrat. Because those of us who are online a lot, it's easy to think that everybody's exposed to the same shit that we are, when that's anything but the case. How much of that, michael, do you think played into the mass hypnosis that Trump pulled on America and developed his cult out of?

Speaker 2: 11:23

I mean, I think it. You know it was probably the most significant factor in the rise of Donald Trump. I mean, if you remember, like I do, you know this messaging started long before Trump decided to run in 2016. You know, you had the rise of kind of like the anti-Obama movement. You had the Tea Partyaning or right-wing media outlets. They created a narrative and they would cherry-pick moments.

Speaker 2: 12:11

You know, ilhan Omar says something outrageous, or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez says something outrageous, and we could cherry-pick these moments and put them on television and run it 24 hours a day and make hardworking Americans or just anyone that watches that news network that's already predisposed to, you know, to that way of thinking, or you know political way of thinking, that they're under attack and they're under attack by, you know, the left wing, socialist, communist, marxist, uh elements and, um, I mean, listen, there were a lot of democrats that do didn't do themselves any favors. Um, you know, absolutely, they, the, these extremes, are what created, uh, or allowed for donald trump, trump to kind of hop in there. And you know, for the first time in American history, at least in my memory, somebody was willing to exploit the worst things about America and the worst things about Americans and use them against us. And now you know, here we are. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:27

Yeah, what has that experience done? I can only imagine. I'm comparing this to some experiences I've had with guys I served with right. What has it done for a relationship, for example, like between you and Harry Dunn? When you guys are together, is there that incredibly deep sense of brotherhood, like we fucking get it. We were there, we were in it. You and I were connected at the heart and soul because of this. Do you have that experience?

Speaker 2: 14:06

Yeah, I mean I'll tell you, like the respect that I have for for Harry and for Aquilino and and Danny, it really stems from. I mean, we all had dramatically different experiences that day, sure, but it was making the conscious decision that you know I'm going to testify before Congress. I think there's, you know, there's a lot of things people don't know about that hearing, namely that our police departments vehemently opposed our participation, so much so that up until really the 11th hour, they didn't even want us to wear our uniforms. Are you shitting me? Oh, I'm dead serious. Yeah, no, they wanted nothing to do with that, and I've always.

Speaker 2: 15:00

I like to say that, if you want to go back to how narcotics prepared me, working narcotics is kind of like we're like redheaded stepchildren of law enforcement.

Speaker 2: 15:10

It's kind of an asymmetric entity. Typically, the guys that are drawn to it have a chip on their shoulder. They're probably best described as assholes like myself, and so at that point, I couldn't have given a shit less what the police department said, and I was going to do it regardless. I felt honestly, I felt like I had a duty, a responsibility, more so than I think I'd ever felt in my entire law enforcement career, like this was so much more important than any drug bust or locking up some murderer, like this was. You know, I really did have a responsibility to myself, to my department, you know, to my colleagues, to my kids, and so that shared responsibility, I think is is what draws the four of us together. And understanding that because I think that's something that no one else because there was only four, four of us that testified that day no one else had those experiences and then testified about them before Congress in the way that we did, and so, yeah, there's, there's a deep level of mutual respect there.

Speaker 1: 16:29

And thank God for that personality. I think you'd probably agree with me that anything but that kind of personality in narcotics probably doesn't work well.

Speaker 2: 16:58

Is that fair to say? Why do we have this stupid policy? And this policy contradicts with that policy? Yeah, I, I just you know, like, um, it prepared me well for, uh, for everything I experienced. And then you know, uh, being called names every day, all day, by pretty much everyone that you came in contact with professionally. Um, you know that that that helped out a lot with the Twitter trolls, and you know the people that I encounter from time to time in public. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:31

And I worked in a correctional facility for a while and I used to always have the experience of I'd be talking with an inmate and in my head I didn't express this, of course, but in my head I'm like dude for what you are in here for the only difference between you and I is that you fucking got caught. I'm going home tonight, but you got caught. You know what I mean, that I would assume you almost have to be right up to the precipice of criminal mentality to understand criminal mentality. Otherwise you're just like a fish out of water. Is that fair to say?

Speaker 2: 18:17

Yeah, no. I mean, you know, like especially working narcotics, like you're constantly in the gray area, especially working narcotics, like you're you're constantly in the gray area. And so yeah, no, I think that that's an accurate assessment.

Speaker 1: 18:35

Yeah, yeah. So, with with what you see happening now, which is basically we have an autocrat right in in the white house doing shit that people are, you know, the lawsuits are filed and every now and then, the supreme court will will rule against him, but for the most part, he's just doing what he wants. I mean, there's, there's a guy that got snatched up, that's in a prison in el salvador that, uh, various courts have said bring him home, but they're just like you know what? Fuck it. We're not bringing the guy home. Did you think it would get this much worse by 2025 or after that experience? Were you like, okay, this is the moment. This shit's going to work itself through the courts, people are going to be held accountable and we're going to move past this.

Speaker 2: 19:33

I never thought that. I mean the moment that that he won reelection, I knew that. You know it was going to be a disaster. Yeah, I didn't know. Like, if you had asked me to, I mean there were a few things that I could tell you, I think in advance, because he had been telling us that he was going to do those things. You know his campaign Right, take the pardons, for example.

Speaker 2: 19:58

You know there was all this talk back and forth and and I even went, you know, toe-to-toe with a couple of uh, you know, media personalities who were like no, no, it's going to be like, uh, very, uh calculated, and you know he's going to go in there with a scalpel and there are certain people that shouldn't have been convicted, blah, blah, blah. I was like no, he, no, he's not, he's not and it's going to be for no other reason than he just doesn't give a shit and he's too lazy to go case by case and then come to find out you know the reporting on that is like he was. They sat down with him, they started going case by case and he's like, nah, fuck it, pardon them all. I fuck it, pardon them all. I don't have time for this, I'm going to go do something else. And so here we are.

Speaker 2: 20:38

You know, listen, you can debate whether or not you know pardoning individuals that you know committed the act of trespassing that day, should or should not have been, you know, tried or the resources been utilized to go after. I'm in, you know, I believe that they should have, because of the totality of the event, right. That being said, the vast majority of those individuals never served any jail time and the ones that did, they didn't serve jail time because they trespassed on Capitol grounds. They served jail time because they already had criminal convictions which allowed for a higher sentencing guideline, which put their asses typically in jail for, you know, something like 15 days to 30 days. But that's, you know, that's those individuals. Then you get down to the 530, some odd individuals who assaulted law enforcement officers, myself included, part, and I just think it's unforgivable Did you about lose your fucking mind when that became reality.

Speaker 2: 21:51

I expected it. So, I mean, the one thing I could say is I appreciate the fact that, like you know Trump ever since day one when he announced his candidacy in Waco Texas. For those of you who have been to Waco Texas, I've been there myself. There's not a whole lot to see in Waco Texas, but it was the site of one of the bloodiest encounters between members of the you know American right wing extremist movement, anti-government movement, and law enforcement, in which a number of law enforcement officers lost their lives. And this is where the guy chooses to announce his candidacy for president. So that should have been a big fucking clue.

Speaker 2: 22:31

You don't have to be a detective to understand that some bad shit is going to happen, and so, yes, I mean, I didn't. I wasn't surprised, and so, therefore, like I was able to contain myself a little better. What I didn't expect was how the Department of Justice and their relationship with me literally turned on a dime. It went from like you are a victim of these crimes and we are here to support you to you are the perpetrator. Fuck off.

Speaker 2: 23:14

Right, that's hard to even get your head around, you know yeah, and then I mean I'll tell you like I, I I'm more pissed off at the american people because, in my mind, each and every person that cast a vote for donald trump voted for that. Each and every person that that voted for trump voted for that. Each and every person that voted for Trump voted for these pardons, and I don't want to hear the shit that you know that's not what I voted for. I voted for his economic policies. Well, how's that working out for you? But yes, you did, because he told you he was going to do that. And if you know, if you're so self-centered and so lacking in empathy that you can't recognize the fact that pardoning these people would put other law-abiding Americans, americans who serve this country, like myself for two decades in danger, then fuck you yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:10

Yeah, you know, it's funny you say about voting for the economic reasons. Right, I got into it before the election. A couple of months before the election my wife and I were out on a walk and a neighbor of mine a couple of houses down he's a pharmacist he was out walking with his dog and he had fucking Trump signs and flags all over his yard Right, and I couldn't help myself and as we he was coming one way, we went the other and I said my wife knows what I'm about to do something. You can almost hear her ass slam Like oh fuck. I said, hey, you know your boy's going to lose, right, and just nice mellow tone and he laughed and said, oh, I don't know about that. And I just kind of fucking snapped right and he said do you have a 401k? And in that moment he identified this typical mindset of zeroing in on one issue so tightly that you have pushed every other goddamn thing he's done or has said he will do out into the periphery. I've driven by and honked and kind of rolled down the window and had a couple of things to say.

Speaker 1: 25:40

Since the election, as the economy craters, I love to ask him how his 401k is doing. He doesn't reply anymore. But that's, yeah, it's defenseless, like you said, for either you did vote for just the economy, which means you're a fucking idiot because you ignored everything else, or you didn't, and you actually like Trump and you agree with all of his bullshit. But now that things are going even worse, you're saying oh well, I voted, you know, because of the economy. Neither one are excusable. In my opinion, which I find out sometimes, nobody cares, you and me both. Yeah, yeah, your book tell me about. Was that any type of cathartic experience or did it rekindle some emotions?

Speaker 2: 26:46

putting that together, no, I mean to be honest with you, it was very cathartic, nice. I mean really a lot of that just had to do with the fact that my co-writer, john Schiffman, was just a really good dude. Yeah, you know he was an investigative reporter from Reuters, but he was like real easy to talk to and I'll be honest with you, man, we spent like the vast majority of the time like running tape and drinking beer. Perfect, that was right up my alley.

Speaker 1: 27:20

I could, oh yeah, drink beer and run my mouth till the cows come home, right and I'm sure that allowed him to to capture that genuine essence of you, that that unfiltered, uninhibited, just here it is. I'm. I'm not cleaning my act up just because there's a writer here that's recording this for history. I want the shit out there as it is. Is that your mindset?

Speaker 2: 27:48

Oh yeah, no doubt. I mean I I think the book that it describes like a very, you know, specific period of time in my life and life's an evolution, and there's a lot of things that I've evolved from in that book. I mean, if you read it, I think you might come away with a sense of you know I'm looking for like our kumbaya moment in the country, like I'm not looking for that anymore. I just want to win. I just want to win and it'll be up to you know, the next generation to mend the fences with you know these maggots and their kids, because I just I don't have it in me.

Speaker 2: 28:32

At the expense of Trump and his supporters, we face threats and swatting incidents and bomb threats and physical harassment. My mom's had shit thrown on her. It's an endless thing. If there's any Trump supporters out there that are watching this, I want you to think about what you would do if somebody threw shit on your mother and you you know what would you do if some guy threw shit on your mom because he attributes your son to being a traitor to this country and that I don't like Trump and so that justifies that action.

Speaker 1: 29:20

Yeah, as you well know and I would hope, anybody watching when it comes to your mother and your kids, if there's anything that will bring the fucking ugly out in a man Right thing that will bring the fucking ugly out in a man right it's screwing with either the mother or your kids. I would guess that kind of thing takes some restraint to just step back and not. Let me say this there are many times in my life that require restraint, where I get incredibly close to doing something really fucking stupid right, and I want to with every cell of my body. And thankfully because I have a family, I don't. I've learned to pull back. Before I was married, before I had kids, I didn't often pull back. Do you identify with any of that in relationship to having a family versus when you didn't have a family?

Speaker 2: 30:36

Oh, hell, yes to having a family versus when you didn't have a family. Oh hell, yes, you know I debate often, you know, police policing and policing in America and punitive punishment and things like that, and people are always like punitive punishment. It doesn't work. It's not a deterrent. It worked for me.

Speaker 2: 30:51

There's lots of things that I want to do every single day, but I don't do them because I don't want to go to jail. You bet your ass, absolutely. It doesn't come down to. There's no other deterrent or barriers in my way, I would rest peacefully at night, having done each and every one of those things. I just don't want to go to jail. Yeah, that's why, when I you know, when Biden pardoned me which was kind of ridiculous in and of itself, but I remember somebody called me up and they said, oh, you've been pardoned. It was like a reporter I had no idea that this was coming down the pipe and I said well, can I trade it in for future acts instead of, for you know, testifying before testifying honestly before the select committee in Congress about what I experienced as a police officer on January 6th? And unfortunately, the answer was no.

Speaker 1: 31:56

God, wow, wow, how. How did you find? Well, first of all, was there much time where you and biden were alone to just be able to have a one-on-one conversation. Did you have that experience with him?

Speaker 2: 32:15

yeah, quite a few times?

Speaker 1: 32:17

what few times? What was your take of the man one-on-one?

Speaker 2: 32:32

I mean, listen, I had conversations to be like incredibly personable, um, very like easy to talk to, you know, despite being the president of the United States.

Speaker 2: 32:45

Um, he's somebody I'd probably drink a beer with, um, but no doubt, like you know, father time and and, uh, the stress of the job, I think, took its toll and um, you know, it's just. I mean, listen, I think there's a lot of things that were wrong about the way that the transition took place, but, you know, I also, like, I mean, I would consider him to be, you know, somebody that I had some level of admiration for and was friendly with, and he, I mean, it really just stems from the fact that he was really good to my family, right, and so that goes a long way. Yeah, it does, especially when you're the president of the United States and there's a fuck ton of other things that you, you know, probably need to uh, to be focused on, not like some asshole cop that got the shit kicked out of him on January 6th, but he did, and uh, and also my family, most importantly, and so, um, yeah, no, it, it was uh. It was sad to see uh, to see it play out that way.

Speaker 1: 33:56

Yeah, I don't know how many people will will agree that this is a good quality in someone, but I admired this trait that I think he has. President Biden always seemed like to me Someone who were he not president and he was coming out of a bar and somebody's getting lippy who wouldn't hesitate to stick a fucking fist in somebody's mouth, right he oh, you know it's.

Speaker 2: 34:24

It's funny you said that because, like a lot of our candid conversations involved, uh, you know, talk of acts of violence and, um, I'm just like you know this is is what America needs to hear. Like we need authenticity. Right Polished shit is just not inspiring. It's not Like it is okay to express anger and outrage when the moment requires it and, believe me, I think we can all agree this moment requires anger and outrage, all agree, this moment requires anger and outrage and we're looking for politicians, statesmen, leaders not managers, leaders, uh who are going to express those emotions, uh, and really speak to the moment. Yeah, and unfortunately, I don't know where the fuck they are.

Speaker 1: 35:15

I agree.

Speaker 2: 35:16

But not nearly enough.

Speaker 1: 35:19

Right now in politics, if any, of course we've got Trump in office, of course, but any other president at this time in history? If you want to fire somebody, fire your speechwriters. Tell them there's no need for you anymore. Go up there and fucking talk from the gut. Talk from the heart. Don't pre-plan this anymore. Go up there and fucking talk from the gut. Talk from the heart. Don't pre-plan this shit. Go up there and talk to Americans, like Americans are talking to each other at their kitchen tables or in the bar, wherever else it may be.

Speaker 2: 35:49

Yeah, I mean this reliance on polls too. I mean you know, like this idea that before you can even pick a position or take a side, like you've got to do 50 polls and see what this subsection of America thinks about this and that, and it's just I mean listen, like it's good to know what the people are thinking. Like I applaud that. Like you shouldn't just willy-nilly make up your mind on things, especially when you have it, don't have experiences. You know I'm not going to go and and uh, become an elected official. Uh, well, I won't period because I'm never going to fucking run.

Speaker 2: 36:26

But I wouldn't start talking about, you know, farming in the farm industry that I've never fucking worked in and I wouldn't expect somebody, uh, a farmer, to tell me how to be a cop and you know so on and so forth and so like that's good, but having them run your life, you know people just need to be it's sad to say like that. We actually have to encourage authenticity. But you know we just don't have enough of it from our, from our leadership. You know we just don't have enough of it from our, from our leadership?

Speaker 1: 36:58

No, we don't. And I also brought that up about President Biden because I've read several things about Trump in that he is so, when it comes down to actually having to do some hard shit with somebody like fire them that he's completely non confrontational and always has someone else do it because he's uncomfortable looking them in the eye and doing it himself. Trump look, he's the guy that he wouldn't fight you one-on-one. He'd whistle and have three or four assholes behind him come up and kick your ass, but he wouldn't do it himself.

Speaker 2: 37:42

And look, this is the redneck the same way, he wouldn't go serve in the fucking military. Oh, absolutely, he came up with some you know stupid excuse. He's got bone spurs or whatever the fuck else. And it just, you know, man, it's like like I mean, you, obviously you serve this country like I've got so many friends in the military that, like are getting are swept up in the spectacle of you know his saying that he admires the military, or hugging a flag, or like picking fights with anybody that wants to protest. Uh, you know america, or the american flag, or or like any of that shit. But then, like, in, you know, in private, you fucking spits on their graves and fucking talks about how he doesn't want to be around a bunch of you know wounded, fucking veterans. He's not going to fucking, you know, meet them at dover. Uh, the bodies coming back from overseas.

Speaker 2: 38:40

It's like how much uh, disrespect, um, will it take for you to recognize that this guy doesn't give a shit about you? He doesn't give a shit about anybody, but he has no ability to comprehend service and servitude to this country and the sacrifices that are made by men and women in the military and law enforcement. He just, he can't comprehend it. And, in fact, because he can't comprehend it. He thinks that you are a sucker. Thinks that you are a sucker. He thinks that you're an idiot for putting on a uniform and going overseas and fighting for the country. Right, right, that is just.

Speaker 1: 39:32

Oh yeah, and for for the viewers, for the listeners, let me clarify a comment I've made. It's not that I want a president who's going to go in and start getting in fistfights with world leaders or, you know, staff. Here's my point on that, and this may be the rural Missouri redneck coming out in me, right, but one measure of a man that I've always used is if somebody gets in his face, will he stand there and take it or run, or will he lock horns and say we're going to fucking find out today who's the better man? The reason that's important to me, because it's that attitude. It's that attitude that goes with them into more civilized positions, right. It's not that if somebody was like that in their youth, that they're going to take that into the White House and just start swinging, knocking people out, right, but they're going to take the attitude of you bring that shit to me and we're going to have problems fast. And that's what. No, go ahead. No, no, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 40:46

No, it's like the golden rule of leadership you never ask your subordinates to do anything that you're not willing to do yourself. There you go, and he epitomizes the opposite of that. Absolutely so.

Speaker 1: 41:02

Yeah, yeah, no, I think you are dead on about that authentic expression we need from politicians right now. Look, I see people, I see Democratic leadership, some who are coming out and their heart's in the right place. They want to speak to this moment right, but they're trying to do it within the rigid confines of what's acceptable as a national level politician right, and what that allows is not enough for this moment. I think most Americans are just like quit with all the icing on the cake shit. Get down to the cake. Talk to me.

Speaker 2: 41:50

Yeah Well, and I think also, you know, I think you would probably agree, Jack this moment is about democracy and preserving democracy in this country and setting aside, like all the other issues, which I get it, they're important, but if we don't have a democracy, we won't have the opportunity to advocate for our positions on those issues, because we're just going to be told what to think and what to do and when to do it by you know, the dear leader, what to do and when to do it by you know the dear leader.

Speaker 2: 42:21

And so what I want to see is politicians that are going to fight for democracy and you know, with each and every tool at their disposal. You know whether it's, you know, getting up on the Senate floor and talking for 25 hours and talking for 25 hours, or you know Ruben Gallego holding up the you know nominations in the VA because of the absolute insanity that Trump gutting the VA. You know listen, like I've been to a VA with a couple of my buddies that you know that served and it was the most depressing thing that I ever experienced in my entire life.

Speaker 1: 43:01

Yes.

Speaker 2: 43:03

Bar none. Yes, the most depressing experience ever to see men and women who have bled for this country treated in a. I mean almost shit. My vet is fucking uh. Cleaner and had a fucking is more efficient than a fucking va hospital right.

Speaker 1: 43:25

Oh, a few years back in 2019 I believe, um, I had a mild heart attack. It was more. It was a coronary vasospasm due to some uncontrolled high blood pressure. But, long story short, they shipped me by ambulance to the Kansas City VA, right, and they keep me for a couple of days and they're doing tests.

Speaker 1: 43:52

And in the back of my mind, as grateful as I am for any care that I have received from the VA, when it comes to something like heart surgery, in the back of my mind I was going please, fuck, not here. Please, let me live old enough to be like 65, 67 and get on Medicare. So I have a choice of who cracks my chest open, right, I don't want them to do it here. And, as you said, look, no knock on the VA per se. It's just that we all know that's not where your best doctors are going, right, and the money's not there. The money wasn't really there before and now it sure shit isn't there to do what they need to do. I agree, when my wife came in, she got up to my room and she was just like gobsmacked, like my God, here, as you said, people who have bled for this country and in some VA hospitals it's like going to a first aid tent it's scary. I guess my point is to see that decline to any degree just isn't acceptable. It's going to cost lives.

Speaker 2: 45:13

Yeah, I mean no doubt. No doubt it's going to cost lives.

Speaker 1: 45:17

Yeah, how has your life changed in terms of your decisions regarding threats, where you go, what you do, how long you stay, how you get there?

Speaker 2: 45:35

Has it changed or is it just pretty much the same? Fuck it, I mean, I'm um much more aware. Um, you know, I have a plan you know with, with my family members, um, and so you know it's like, um, it's kind of crazy man. It's almost like going to work every day when I was a cop. Yeah, just going out on the street is, you know, you're preparing for, you know, a potential like worst-case scenario.

Speaker 2: 46:05

Like I fucking bring a trauma kit, like everywhere I go, yeah, which you know I didn't think about it. And then, like, I was talking to a reporter buddy of mine and he's like you carry a trauma kit everywhere you go for like what? For gunshots? And I was like, yeah, um, I mean, I get death threats on a daily basis, yeah, and I know that, like, a lot of them are just these little Twitter trolls and whatnot, but you know it's still, it's, it is a is a very strange feeling knowing that there's people out there in this country that hate me so much that they would like to kill me, just for what happened to me on January 6th and the fact that I had the courage to speak out about it.

Speaker 1: 47:10

Yeah, that's a mind-blowing thing to try to process for anybody. By the way, regarding the trauma kit, I'm a former Navy corpsman or medic. Both of our cars have trauma kits in them, so we go nowhere without a trauma kit. My wife, who is considerably younger than me and comes from a different era, younger than me and comes from a different era. She doesn't verbalize it, but I know she looks at me like this is one of those fucked up old vets. Right, he thinks the war is still going on, but in my head.

Speaker 1: 47:50

There is a war still going on in our own country. There is a war still going on in our own country when people want to kill you and it pales in comparison to what you get and everybody knows your name and damn few people know my name, but I've gotten a couple and yeah, that's a war to me. When somebody has declared, yeah, if I see you I'll blow your fucking head off, I treat that like war. Right, you have to. And it's not so much.

Speaker 1: 48:24

And I think, especially having been a former narcotics officer, I think we probably are kind of on the same frequency with this. It's not that I don't take serious the people who say you know I'm going to blow you up or shoot you, I do. But the people who concern me the most are the ones who won't say a damn thing. And I step out on my porch some morning and somebody's two blocks away with a crosshair on my forehead and I never know what hit me. That's the kind of stuff I think about and I, I do. Uh, I rarely drives my wife nuts, I rarely drive home the same way, right, I'm always zigzagging.

Speaker 2: 49:10

Yeah, no, I mean that was a habit I picked up 25 years ago and, um, it stuck with me my entire career. But yeah, no, and I mean you know like it's. I think what a lot of people like fail to understand is because I do like I'll get it in these conversations from time to time People are like, well, you're just, you know you're being hysterical Like, well, people that tried to kill me on January 6th are now free, and a lot of them believe that, one, I'm a traitor to the country, but two, that you know I'm the reason that they were incarcerated for however long they were incarcerated before Trump let them out, incarcerated for however long they were incarcerated before Trump let them out. And then there was just a lot of others that identified me as, like a spokesperson for law enforcement that day, and so these are the people that concern me.

Speaker 2: 50:09

And also, you know Trump himself has dehumanized the police officers that were there so much. You know he's called us thugs. You know he's made a lot of like off-the-cuff references about. You know our treatment of the January 6th patriots. You know his supporters, and so, in that, you know that's the dehumanizing language that people use to justify attacking the Capitol on January 6th. It's the same dehumanizing language that inspires people to attack me and then knowing, hey, maybe Trump will just pardon me for killing Mike Fanone because he pardoned these other guys. And I think that that's, you know, in Trump's mind. It's like I can instill fear, maybe not in Mike Fanone, but I can instill fear in others who might look to Mike and say, oh, maybe I should speak up about my experience, or maybe I should, you know, get involved in some way. But whoa, look at what he's doing to this poor asshole. Right, yeah, I'm not going to engage, yeah, and so, oh, I agree with you.

Speaker 1: 51:27

Some of these assholes out there, I guarantee you are thinking. You know what as symbolic as that guy is to the whole anti-Trump thing. If I knock him off, I think Trump would pardon me. You know they've got to be thinking that he sent that message when he pardoned the J6ers. How could they not?

Speaker 2: 51:53

I mean I know they do because they talk about it on social media.

Speaker 1: 51:56

Okay, so you've seen it.

Speaker 2: 51:59

It's, at least it's you know, circling somebody's, you know somebody's mind out there, Quite a few people.

Speaker 1: 52:07

And I think you make a good point. It may not shut you up, may not shut me up, but there are a lot of people that it will shut up. They're like, okay, I don't know, I'm not Michael Fennel, I'm not Jack, I'm not this guy, I'm not this person. I'm fucking scared, so I'm just going to stay out of it. And that weakens the resistance for every person who will no longer speak out. So in that regard, he's having some success with that. Whether he shuts you up or not, like you said, just the fact that he's hammering, chipping away, they see that and go. I don't want that shit in my life.

Speaker 2: 52:58

You know I don't want death threats.

Speaker 2: 53:00

And I mean it's, it has had almost an immediate effect. I mean, if you look at, what are we like 70, 80 days into the this? Yeah, I think I think so. So look at where we're at today versus where we were 70 or 80 days into the first administration. First of all, like the first protest happened like the day after his inauguration, and it was over 100,000 people came to the Capitol to protest.

Speaker 2: 53:32

You know Trump and his rhetoric and presumed policies and his rhetoric and presumed policies, but it was almost steady for the entire administration and there were countless politicians. There were Republicans, there were Democrats, there were lots of people that stood up at least early on. Some continued through, but now we're seeing nothing. No one, you know very few individuals willing to to engage directly with the president, very few individuals willing to engage directly with his cabinet, and I mean, I get it like you know, he controls all of these institutions that we typically rely on to protect us as Americans, and now we can't. Which is also why I think that this, this administration, the resistance is going to be just average guys and gals like me and you. It's not going to be politicians, it's not going to be police officers, it's not going to be people in positions of power or authority in the government, it's just going to be pissed off Americans doing what pissed off Americans do best.

Speaker 1: 54:50

I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more, and that's, I think, one reason I pound home the message that it is us, that this is who it is, we are who will solve this. You know the idea that we at one time were able to get on social media and see what our leaders were going to do to correct something in my mind. Those days are over. They may still—they obviously have a role, but in terms of the impetus and the thrust and the drive behind getting shit done, if we don't do it, then there's no drive of sufficiency from anybody at that highest level.

Speaker 2: 55:40

I believe that with my heart and soul, yeah, no, I mean, it's not insurmountable, you know, at the moment. And the last thing, I guess, like you know, there was a lot of people, especially the Democratic operatives, that were talking about well, we can, you know, we need to hold fast until the midterm elections. Fuck that Right. I think that in and of itself, pissed off a lot of Americans, the idea that we would just grin and bear it for two years while this guy runs roughshod over our Constitution and our Bill of Rights, right, and also on our fucking livelihoods. Yes, you know, because that, like Democratic operatives still getting his big fat paycheck and Congress is getting their big fat paycheck, you know.

Speaker 2: 56:41

But you know, meanwhile, like my fucking 401k or my pension or fucking my Social Security check or whatever, have been destroyed and then, or like I lost my fucking job. And or like I lost my fucking job, I worked for the federal government for 20 some odd years and, fucking, I just get shit canned in the, you know, by some rich bazillionaire asshole, which I mean, talk about insult, add an insult to injury. Some rich asshole, elon Musk and his army of fucking 19 year old dorks. Yes, um, and I. I just, you know, like where I know I don't always come across as like the compassionate, empathetic type, uh, but we, like, we got to start caring about our neighbors and, like you know, we got to start caring about our neighbors and we got to start caring about their quality of life as much as we care about our own quality of life.

Speaker 2: 57:51

Yes, agreed, the country's just become a place where I don't even want to fucking be. Uh, because, like you, I mean I remember a time in which none of this shit existed and like people could have a fucking drink together and talk shit to one another about their you know politics and then pivot the conversation to baseball or football or fucking fishing or anything else, um, and, without you know, go go into fucking blows. And now it's just like I mean, is this, is this the place we want to raise our kids? Is this, you know it? Just it sucks not.

Speaker 1: 58:31

we need to start caring about our neighbors. And I said I absolutely agree, and somebody watching and listening, based on the encounter I had with my neighbor, they may think well, jack, pick a. Which one do you believe? Look, here's what I believe. I grew up mostly in the 70s, right, I was born in 66 and grew up in a small town at a time when if somebody in your family died, everybody brought food right. Whether you were tight with them or not, everybody brought food, that kind of thing. And in the 1970s the difference being the 1970s had a president encouraged and initiated an insurrection nobody in this community would have, a few years later, have plastered flags and signs and shit in their yard because they'd have been thinking about their neighbor.

Speaker 1: 59:32

Look this guy as a veteran, look this guy as a veteran. To me, when I drive by that every day, or when I did drive by it every day, it's like dude, what a fucking slap in the face. Do you not hear him say the things that he has said about veterans? And you know this town is full of veterans and you're going to promote this guy again after that kind of thing? And look, I understand I'm probably a little more unhinged when it comes to expressing myself than the average person. But again, I see that if we're just quiet about everything like that, I told my wife, I said me seeing him and not saying something is a silent endorsement of hey, yeah, you know, a veteran lives two houses up, but you stick this shit in your yard. If I don't say something, it's like ah, that's OK. Yeah, add a couple more flags. I don't want to silence, I don't really endorse that. I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:00:52

I could not possibly agree with you more, possibly agree with you more, like I mean, I'm not encouraging like people to get confrontational and go out and try to, like you know, get in fistfights with everybody, right, nor am I. I think that part of the problem is, you know, it's the same. Look to 1930s Germany, which has now passed us in this country. But you know, you had this period of time in which what's the famous quote? Like they came for the socialists, but I wasn't a socialist and I didn't do shit. Then they came for the trade unionists, but I wasn't a trade unionist and I didn't do shit. Then they came for someone the fuck else. And then finally they came for me, but guess what, nobody was left, so there was no one to fucking speak up for me. And now I'm sitting in this fucking, you know El Salvadorian, fucking shithole prison. That's it, brother, and that's the you know it's like. I don't think that. Like I equate MAGA to being a hateful, violent, vile movement, and so why would I want that? I don't want my kids exposed to that, I don't want to see it out on the streets, and so if I have an opportunity to engage with somebody and bring up the fact that, like you said, hey, listen, this guy is you're like idle disparages the military, and I'm a member of the military and I don't appreciate having to look at this crap every time I drive up and down. Now listen, it's his prerogative. He wants to have that dumb shit in his yard Absolutely. Go right the fuck ahead. But I think it's important that he knows how you feel about that being there and you can do it in a firm but nonviolent manner. I think that we need more of those interactions.

Speaker 2: 1:02:48

I say it to every single person that I see that's wearing some MAGA paraphernalia. First, I think you look like an idiot, because who the fuck wears this shit outside of, like the election cycle If you're not at you know, a rally? Why are you wearing MAGA crap? And you're doing it because you want to intimidate people and you want to come across as like you know that that fucking guy or that girl or that girl there's a lot of like layers, to my mind, to why that you know why that shit has become like regular garb. But you know, I tell them like hey, listen, my name is Mike Fanone. I was a police officer in DC and I went to the Capitol on January 6th and I almost lost my life. And the reason why is because Donald Trump lied to America and he told the Americans that the election was stolen. We know it wasn't. If you don't accept that, I can't help you, but if you do, then why the fuck did you vote for this guy?

Speaker 1: 1:03:50

Good on you, man. Fuck yeah, I couldn't agree more with you, for I can't agree more with me on that right. Yeah, you know, and you brought up a great point Is it his right to stick all that shit in his yard? Hell yes, but as I told my wife, who was like why'd you have to do that, I said, look, it's my fucking right to say something about the shit in his yard. So he's utilizing his right, I'm utilizing mine, and for all the reasons you gave, I just think that's what needs to happen. And again, neither one of us are promoting violence, you know, jumping somebody, jacking their jaw, nothing that but we should be expressing our authentic feelings about this. Where does your life go? And I, I realize asking anybody this question is kind of fucked up because I mean, I don't know what I'm going to be doing a year from now, two years from now, but just when you kind of roughly run it through your head, where's life maybe going for you in terms of where you go, what you do, that kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 1:05:11

I don't know, I got like really, really engaged, you know, with trying to prevent Trump from becoming president in the lead up to, I mean really in the like four years that Biden was president all the way to the lead up to you know, the last election and then when we lost, I kind of just was like, all right, well, I'm going to focus on what comes next. And the shitty thing was that for the past four years I've been applying to jobs and looking for opportunities and nobody would hire me. They just didn't want to deal with, you know, this polarizing figure, that the way they described me, and they had concerns, especially leading up to the you know Trump to the inauguration and I guess you know Trump to the inauguration and I guess, you know, honestly, I can't blame them. It sucks and it's shitty. And I still think that, you know, these people are fucking cowardly. I deserve to earn a living, just like everybody else. I've never committed a crime. I'm, you know, a good guy, I've got some good skill sets.

Speaker 2: 1:06:41

But you look at the way that Donald Trump is pursuing each and every one of his perceived you know detractors or you know, in his mind, the enemies list, and it is long and distinguished, but he is. You know he's going after law firms any law firm that offered legal assistance to anyone you know that that may have pursued accountability for his numerous crimes. And so you know, a lot of these companies that I tried to get a job with were like we fear that would happen. And lo and behold, you know, a lot of these companies that I tried to get a job with were like we feared that would happen. And lo and behold, you know it's happened. And so I guess the short answer is I don't know, man, because I can't.

Speaker 2: 1:07:28

I seem to be stuck in this space, and it's not that I don't believe in it, and it's not that I don't want to do it, but like I don't. I mean, the reality is like I resigned from the police department. Um, you know, I don't collect a pension, I don't have health insurance. Uh, I have four children. Uh, I have bills to pay, and, um, and I don't have a retirement, and I'm now 44 years old, kind of starting from scratch. And so you know, I don't know what comes next. All I can do is like focus on fighting the fight and hoping that, you know, eventually we're going to right this ship and things will go back to um, not go back to normal. They'll get better, yeah, better than they ever were.

Speaker 1: 1:08:26

I believe. I believe that for you. Has anybody approached you with a movie deal, something like that.

Speaker 2: 1:08:35

Yeah, it's um've I'm involved with uh, I'm doing something with sean penn um nice and so you know, hopefully, uh, hopefully you know, there you'll have something to um, you know, eat popcorn and drink beer to uh in the in the near future.

Speaker 1: 1:08:57

Hell, yes, yes, and that's that's when I said I think I realized the position that you are in now and the thoughts that you're having about things, but I just can't. Here's, here's where I think you kind of sealed that up, brother, is when you said fuck it, I'm, I'm going to testify, right. Um, there's, there's something. I know that I was talking before we went on air about that Rolling Stone article. Michael Fanone is not your hero and it's a great article, by the way. Uh, for anybody who might want to find that.

Speaker 2: 1:09:40

All the photo shoots I've ever done. That was the best photo shoot, I think, or the most fun that I ever had. Oh, I'll give you guys a teaser. So, like the writer, alex, she was great, I had a ton of fun hanging out with her.

Speaker 2: 1:10:00

But she asked me at the end of the interview. She's like do you have any suggestions for the photo shoot? And I was like, yes, I do, I would like to bring a lawn chair to the west front of the Capitol and sit there and fucking drink beer with my dog. And she's like you know, perfect with my dog. And, um, you know perfect. She said um, you know, I'll suggest it, but I'm just letting you know. Like they never say yes, they always come back with something else. And like she's like we had these celebrities and all the time they come up with these different, you know different, uh ideas and they we always say no and lo and behold back. They're like that's the best idea ever. And so there I am. I had to get permission.

Speaker 2: 1:10:40

At the time it was Speaker Pelosi, now Speaker Emeritus Pelosi. So I called up Pelosi and I said hey, listen, is it cool if I do a photo shoot on the west front of the Capitol and she said oh, yeah, yeah, of course. And so we go out there and we shoot the photo shoot and then later on in the day I get a phone call and she's like michael, were you out there drinking beer all day long on the west front of the cabin? She's like those weren't real beers, were they? And I was like fucking perfect.

Speaker 1: 1:11:20

No, dude, that's what. That's what pulled me in to that article. Uh, I that picture, you know it's right at the top, under underneath rolling stone, and I'm like I don't. Whatever follows beneath this has got to be some good shit, because he's, you know, kickback in his Crocs drinking beer on the Capitol.

Speaker 2: 1:11:42

I mean I did some other articles I liked, like the time article was good, but I just like Like I'm a deeply, deeply flawed human being, as am I, and that's that's kind of like. What, at least like part of the messaging, is like I don't want to be referred to as a hero, but I'm also like, and I tell people all the time you're a hero. I'm like, well, if you knew me, you'd probably say you're an asshole, not a hero. But I just, you know, it's like I guess I rejected that label and I mean I appreciate people that label and um, and I, I mean I appreciate people that, uh, are inspired by what I did in that moment. Um, but my life is much less inspirational, but I think that's, that's okay.

Speaker 1: 1:12:29

um, you know, like I think it makes it even more interesting to be honest.

Speaker 2: 1:12:35

You know what I mean, that I want to drink beer with that guy on the cover of time magazine. That's like looking off into the you know, out there and like in his uniform and the, I don't want to drink a beer with that dude, don't drink beer. Crocs and, uh, you know t-shirt, sitting on the capitol basically giving the biggest fuck you to everyone in that building that he possibly could. You know that's. That's the guy I want to hang out with.

Speaker 1: 1:13:05

That's it. That is it. And you know there's just something about. You addressed it earlier when you said man, this country needs right now more than anything, authenticity. And to that point where, if somebody might counter argue, uh, something about, uh, maga and their authenticity? There's not a fucking thing authentic about maga. That is a charade of bullshit. Exactly, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:13:36

And I laugh all the time, like because I talked. You know like I live out in the rural part of Virginia. Like there's a lot of Trump supporters out here and I talk to people and it's like, what about? Trump is authentic, like what it looks like a fucking WWE event, that's exactly what you've got cabinet full of like characters. Uh, you know that all of them are, are like. I mean, they're like cartoonish um and and trump is the. You know that the ringleader or the, the ringmaster of like the weirdest back-ass circus that I've ever seen in my life. You nailed it Genuine love of country.

Speaker 2: 1:14:24

There's no genuine appreciation for Americans or what Americans do on a daily basis. There's no, he couldn't. He has nothing but disdain for working classclass people. They're the scum of the earth, exactly, and it's so apparent in everything that he does. And I don't get it. I don't get how my buddy that works as a mechanic down the road for me is like this super MAGA enthusiast, but like we drink beer sometimes, and he's like I hate golf, I hate these assholes that go to palm springs and I I hate this. Well, uh, and I'm like that's all that motherfucker does exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:15:10

You're paying for it, you idiot. Absolute, absolutely, man. You know here's. Here's the thing that I realize about donald trump. There's never a day in his life where that prick gets up and puts on a t-shirt, uh, throws on a any hat other than that dumb fucking red hat that Elon sets up on his head like super truck driver with a hat that's too small. There's no like today. I'm just going to kick back, throw on a t-shirt, pair of shorts. His mind is so tied into that image he has of himself as this all-powerful businessman that I would say when he takes a shower it kind of freaks him out a little bit because he doesn't have his cape on right, his red tie and his suit and he's like, for just that minute he feels vulnerable and I can think of other reasons why he doesn't like to take his clothes off first jack.

Speaker 2: 1:16:22

On behalf of me and the rest of the audience, fuck you for putting that image into all.

Speaker 1: 1:16:32

Yes, you know what I should have? I should be fucking scolded for that. I should be. Yeah, I've got to admit it kind of made me a little nauseous after it fell out of my mouth, but I couldn't reel it back in. Yeah, no, there's no, and I think where we see this, maybe it's just the one that gets the most attention. Look, name one other president in history that hasn't been able to come across as authentic in their feelings about our veterans and our troops. I can't think of one in my lifetime.

Speaker 2: 1:17:17

That's like that's almost a prerequisite of being president of the United States, that you back the troops and our veterans there near the top of the pecking order memoir contains some you know chapter on some decision that they had to make in which they put, you know, american servicemen in harm's way, and, like, what a difficult decision that was and how, like the loss of American soldiers haunts them to this day, literally almost without exception, that I know within my lifetime.

Speaker 2: 1:18:01

And like Trump jests or maybe not about sending American service members to secure Gaza so that, you know, maybe he can develop it and turn it into like a resort. And it's just like, even if it was a fucking joke, it just shows such a lack of respect for, like, that level of sacrifice and that level of commitment to, you know, to a cause. And you know what, I know dozens of soldiers that, despite the stupidity of that fucking you know directive, would obey it because they fucking love this country so much and are so committed to you know america and an american interest and doing their fucking job in service of those things, right, um, and it's like how can you take that for granted?

Speaker 1: 1:19:11

it's unthinkable to to me, somebody like you I think to most Americans Is there a particular member of Congress and the GOP? Throughout all of the experiences you've had and the interactions you've had, and the shit that you've seen or heard spoken on television from these people is is? Is there two or three that stick in your crawl the most in terms of their MAGA bullshit and their personality and their stance? Who, who? Who pisses you off the most?

Speaker 2: 1:19:56

I'd have to say, of all of them, it's got to be Andrew Clyde from Georgia. If you remember, this is the guy that kind of really started the whitewashing of January 6th. You know, kind of really started the whitewashing of January 6th. He testified that, you know, january 6th or at least he said in a committee hearing that January 6th, if you watch the footage, appeared to be just another normal tourist day at the Capitol. And I tell you like why that was so significant, at least in my life, is because up until then I had done some media appearances that all had been sanctioned by the police department and it was really just about recounting my own experience and the things that I witnessed that day. This was the first time that I decided to act on my own and I downloaded my body-worn camera footage which is a big policy violation within the police department, and I sent it to CNN, to Don Lemon, and I asked him to air it, you know, unedited, which you know is a huge ask if you're familiar with the you know legacy cable news industry.

Speaker 1: 1:21:20

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:21:21

Anything that's more than a minute and 30 seconds. It's like asking them to send you to Mars.

Speaker 1: 1:21:28

Right.

Speaker 2: 1:21:30

And so I just figured like I didn't even want to go on the show, figured like I didn't even want to go on the show. I just wanted him to air the footage because I saw that as the biggest rebuke to this insane description of January 6th, which you know, by the way. I had dozens of police officers who were there that day, who were injured, still out on medical leave, like I was calling me up, distraught over the fact that this ass clown would characterize or mischaracterize their experience in such a callous way. And this is a guy that was in the military, by the way. I don't know what the fuck he did. I would imagine that he was not an enlisted person. But really, this is. You know, this is what, this is what we've come to.

Speaker 2: 1:22:17

And so they did it. They aired it. I think it was. You know the segment they aired was about 20 plus minutes, unedited. Wow. And you know it was. It was the first time I ever watched my own body worn camera footage and cried like up until then I it was. It was kind of it was like watching somebody else get their ass kicked right. Um, and then the next day I went on the show and and I talked about, you know, my experience and that's kind of like. I hoped to return to being a cop, but I kind of realized that, um, that that was, you know, that was the end of the road and, and despite, you know, my goal had always been a return to full duty, which I did, Um, but it was apparent that I could not be a cop and also advocate for the truth, Um, and so, you know, I ended up, uh, choosing the latter.

Speaker 1: 1:23:15

Yeah, and boy have you done so since. Let me let me ask you about your traumatic brain injury. I experienced a TBI in 1996. And they didn't when they, when they called my, I was in the Navy. When they called my parents, they weren't sure I was going to live, but obviously I did. I've dealt with the residuals of that ever since and I'm not going to go into all of mine or any of mine. This is. I want to talk about you, but do you deal with ongoing residuals of your traumatic brain injury?

Speaker 2: 1:24:00

Oh, absolutely Well. First, you know, one of the things that I kind of realized during the writing process for my book was that this was actually the seventh traumatic brain injury that I had suffered as a police officer in DC. You know, one of the things that we had done was we went through my medical records and, you know, my co writer, john Schiffman, was like Did you know that you've actually had seven TB eyes over the past 20 years? And I did not, and I really didn't notice the symptoms until I started undergoing like speech therapy, which is kind of like misleading, like I didn't need to learn, relearn how to talk.

Speaker 2: 1:24:48

It was more about like cognitive issues that I was dealing with, you know, in the aftermath of this latest tbi, and one of the things that I had a huge problem with and I still do to this day, uh, short-term memory, yes, and um word search, yes. Like there are times where I will be in a conversation and you know I want a glass of water and I, I the word water escapes me, and it ends up being like, hey, can I want a glass of water? And the word water escapes me and it ends up being like can I get a glass of that clear, cool stuff that sustains life. You know, I can come up with all that, but I can't to save my life. Think of the word water. And then the short-term memory stuff is also like I had.

Speaker 2: 1:25:37

I never had any, any memory issues. And then, um, you know, I started like I could be in a conversation and and forget how I you know how the conversation started or what the hell you know I was talking about. And and then, um, you know, things that I did this morning are are less clear than things that happened to me six years ago. Yes, and so it was through the therapy that I started to realize that. You know, these are actual symptoms of this. And it's not just that. Like you know, I'm a fucking forgetful asshole that you know, my ex-wife accused me of being for years.

Speaker 1: 1:26:17

Um, right, yeah, right now, because, like I, I do, like I'll I to and to be honest with you, it's not that I forgot, it's just that I decided something else was higher priority, right, and I just didn't do it. But when she says something about it, I'll look at her with this kind of like twinkle in my eye and I'll say, babe, look, I'm a disabled veteran. And she's like get the fuck out of here with that shit. You just didn't do it. Do you ever walk into a room this is one that I've stood there and had tears roll down my face before over this.

Speaker 1: 1:27:33

I'll walk into a room with what I know were intentions of doing something and I'll get in there and stand there like an idiot, having no idea what I know. I came in there to do something. I just can't tell you what it was, and most of the time I'm just like fuck it, I'll go on. It'll come to me later. But there've been a couple of times where, um, I guess I'm just so shit full of that that, um, man, maybe it's just a weak moment, but I'll just stand there tears rolling down my face, like I'm so fucking tired of this why. You know what I mean. You kick your own ass.

Speaker 2: 1:28:09

Two or three times a day, I'd say at least. Um, yeah, no, it's uh. I mean I like I live by myself and uh, I've got a pretty like isolated like lifestyle. I kind of like do my own thing and then three o'clock I turn into soccer, dad, and it's like going to get my kids and, and you know so, like it doesn't really affect me, but yeah, I mean there's times where, um, where that happens and you know like it's, it's just like I mean, anytime I experience the symptoms there are, there are moments where I'm like so exhausted with dealing with that that I become emotional.

Speaker 1: 1:29:02

Yeah, and do you also experience, then does anger kick in when you tie it back to why you're experiencing that?

Speaker 2: 1:29:14

You know it does not for me and I I have to um, I have to attribute that to like the therapy that I was getting, awesome um, immediately after, like it was so intensive, I and I had a lot of like my, my main therapist had had done a significant amount of time at Walter Reed and I attribute a lot to that.

Speaker 2: 1:29:39

And then also, you know one of my really good friends who was, uh, you know, a range of regiment guy, third battalion.

Speaker 2: 1:29:47

He got me involved in some groups with uh, with other veterans that had similar uh experiences, and so you, similar types of injuries, similar types of symptoms, and so it was cool, like because you know we were all guys that would, you know, talk shit about one another and you know, could make fun of it and use humor as a, you know, as a defense mechanism. But also, you know you get that like a defense mechanism. But also, you know you get that like there's just something that allows for I mean that, why is this? You know, why is this podcast going so well right now? We've never fucking met each other, I've never even had a conversation with you beforehand, but there's kind of that shared understanding in um, oh, I agree, service and sacrifice and the willingness to do both. That allows for me to, you know, feel more comfortable and, you know, be not honest but be, you know, more willing to, you know, kind of get into those nooks and crannies that I might not normally do with, just some Joe Blow off the street.

Speaker 1: 1:31:00

I know exactly what you mean and I want to say this too you are a veteran. In my mind, everything about you. You are a veteran of the United States, going back to your narcotic work right Right up to January 6th. If that's not veteran shit, I don't know what is. So when I see the flag on the wall behind you and it's so appropriate to me to see you and that flag at the same time, because of the symbolism of what a veteran is and the kind of acts that they engage in and fears that they experience, but have to go on and do something anyway, that's inseparable. Michael Fanone is a United States veteran. So I want you to know, and I've talked to veteran friends of mine who we've had this very conversation about you and they can't agree more. Jack, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:32:10

Well, that means a lot, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate that, you know. As for the flag man, it's like I love this country and this country is not Donald Trump. You know, donald Trump is just, you know, the current leader and you know, listen, like, if there's one thing that every American can unite behind, it's that we've all worked for an asshole boss, and so, like, right now we just have this asshole boss, and so, you know, we got to stay strong and and oust this movement that he's come to represent and just get back to being being Americans that's about as simple as as anyone can put it.

Speaker 1: 1:33:08

You know, in terms of where we need to go, we don't need some. You know 300, 300-page dissertation on it. It really comes down to that. I think it really does. I want to ask you you mentioned something about. You said you know I'm a flawed human being and I said so am I? And man, I am right, right, as I think many people are. Some just do a better job of hiding it or concealing it or just refuse to admit it. I've come to embrace mine, right, rather than I fought with a lot of my flaws for decades until I finally realized you know what applied to the right thing and behind the right cause. My flaws are actually strengths, and I get that about you. Even though you've not necessarily identified any of those flaws, I think you have probably as the decades have unfolded, you have probably, as the decades have unfolded, those flaws are your very strengths. Am I on with that?

Speaker 2: 1:34:24

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know it's like what's the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem, like if you can recognize some of these things even though, like you know, some of them I'll probably never change but, you know, just recognizing it and being mindful, especially when it comes to you know relationships with other people and interacting with others. I mean that's where I like, I feel that you know understanding those flaws and recognizing it, and then you know being cognizant of it and doing things to, you know, rectify it. And I'm not always, you know, on point, but yeah, I try to be and yeah, I think it makes all of us better people. Well, that's what makes you I try to be and uh, yeah, I think it makes makes all of us better people.

Speaker 1: 1:35:18

Well, that's what makes you so interesting to me, um, in a different way. I mean, god's sake, harry Dunn is interesting to me, but you're interesting to me in a in a different way, in that when you show up in front of the camera or when you just when you show up anywhere, like your, uh, fairly recent engagement with that little dipshit, enrique Terrio, right, um, in those moments, um, you reveal so many textures about you that I think to to use a metaphor, if we're talking stucco work or drywall work, I think a lot of people in life go to great lengths to make sure they use that trowel and smooth that shit over, right, so that it mirrors perfection as close as can be. And what appeals to me about you is you throw some shit on the wall and kind of run it over and it's like, okay, it's doing what it's supposed to do and a perfect example for that. That is a part of my past too. So I laughed my ass off when I read it. There was a statement about yes, michael Fanone uses lawn chairs as real furniture, or whatever the quote was in that book.

Speaker 1: 1:36:42

And I'm like when my wife met me, look, all I can explain is I've always been a guy who's about function, not aesthetics, right? I don't give a shit how it looks. I need a place to put my ass down and and be able to to rest my legs. Uh, if it's a stiff enough cardboard box, that'll be fine. I just need it against a wall so I can lean back.

Speaker 1: 1:37:09

And and I've I've always gotten that from you, that uh, that from you, that uh, I guess, to summarize it, say he doesn't give a fuck, right, about the bullshit that a lot of people give a fuck about, and I resonated with that, um, and I think that's something somebody would would probably my wife being one of them call one of my flaws. But I'm asking this question of you. It's helped me process all the bullshit in life because I don't immerse myself in the shit. That just doesn't matter, right? I'm not going to get caught up in what you think of my fucking chair. I'm gonna sit down and if it's good for me, you can like it or not like it, fuck it, but I like it. Is that you?

Speaker 2: 1:38:09

no 100. Yeah, I just you know I'm comfortable with who I am and like I don't give a fuck. Yeah, yeah, I'll take criticism and critique on the way I interact with people, right.

Speaker 2: 1:38:25

Oh sure, sure, but it comes to, like you know, like you said, the aesthetics or even in dealing with people in the pop and circumstance, like I've just never been one to give a shit. Like I've just never been one to give a shit. It's funny we were talking earlier about Joe Biden and I happened to be with the former president at some event you know fancy schmancy event where I had to wear adult clothes and I was there with Sean Penn and I said something like off the wall shit, and Sean was like I fucking can't believe. You said that crazy shit to the president of the United States. I'm like, no, it's like he's a guy and and he laughed, you know, he's funny. And it's like you know what, I don't know man, maybe maybe old.

Speaker 2: 1:39:16

You know, uncle Joe, just in that moment, needed somebody to talk to him, like he wasn't the fucking, uh, you know, oh, the most powerful person on on the fucking, uh, face of the earth. Uh, you know, it's just like. I don't know. I, I, um, I'm not, I'm never trying to be disrespectful, but I don't know. No, no, you care if, uh, you know, the queen of England or or, fucking, uh, you know, the lady that, fucking you know, has to clean my toilets. Um, everybody deserves, you know, respect and and uh, and I can fucking get along with with anybody, yeah, except for Trump.

Speaker 1: 1:39:55

Fuck that dude, right yeah, and that's part of that authenticity that you were talking about earlier, that man when we can peel back. Look, president Biden, I've always had a sense that behind the scenes that's kind of who he was right. That, like you said, somebody you could enjoy having a beer with, and that's always how he came across to me, right? I bet I could rattle off some old hardcore Navy jokes and he'd laugh and he'd probably match me with some jokes of his own and he'd laugh and he'd probably match me with some jokes of his own.

Speaker 1: 1:40:43

And to be able to, how do we move that? Or do we? How do we get leaders and politicians to bring that from, like those one-on-one situations that you guys had, where you know the cameras aren't around and all that kind of thing, and bring that out on a national stage? Now, before you answer, I will preface this by saying look, I realize Trump already has in a sense, but Trump has done it in a way to connect with America's worst, right yeah, as you and I both know, you can bring that same thing out and connect with good people. It's intention, right? So how do we get leaders to start doing that? I mean?

Speaker 2: 1:41:33

I think that we think we need to.

Speaker 2: 1:41:39

I mean, obviously we have a two party system in this country and I don't agree with it. I think we should have more parties in this country because I see that as one of a very big contributing factor into, like, how divisive things have gotten. You know, you've got two sides and it's it's an us against them situation for a lot of Americans. That being said, I mean, like the DNC needs to go out and when they're recruiting people, recruiting candidates, like, rather than like finding somebody that is like an Ivy League educated individual that might have some loose tie to some congressional district that they want to put this person out there, like why don't you go into that district and find somebody that speaks the language, so to speak, that understands you, know that area and the people that live there and prop that person up. Give that individual a platform, because then the authenticity just comes natural. I mean, there's really no other way to get it. If you want to get working class people engaged in the Democratic Party, you've got to use working class people to engage with them.

Speaker 1: 1:42:59

Because I just don't.

Speaker 2: 1:43:00

I don't have, there's nothing in me that I'm not going to be inspired by. Like you know, I'm not going to rattle off names, but I'm a high school dropout. You know, my first job was hanging drywall and working concrete, construction, concrete forms, like then I became a cop. I don't. I'm just not going to be inspired by somebody who doesn't have a similar backstory and I'm not going to feel as though I'm heard and I mean listen, like a lot of the tendency is for those kind of people is to kind of look down their nose at people like you and I. You got it, man, and so and that's. You know, like one interaction like that that goes public, you know, is going to go viral. One interaction like that that goes public, you know, is going to go viral. It's going to turn off huge swaths of Americans.

Speaker 2: 1:44:01

I mean not to say, like you know, I'm not hating on people for, like, getting an education and like yes there are people out there that, can, you know, climb the rungs of the social ladder and still stay true to their roots. But I think it's just fine time that people are represented by people like them that come from their world, and I think that's what would resonate. It's certainly what would resonate with me.

Speaker 1: 1:44:28

Oh, absolutely. And I think if we lifted anything out of what you've just said, it's that for so long we've not been represented by people like us. Right, you know, we're just not. And you, I think a problem on their end is that you can't fake understanding the people you represent. They can't effectively fake resonating with you and I. They have no fucking idea how things work on this end, how our lives are really lived, the conversations, the language. They don't get that. So to the extent that somebody goes out of their way to try to make us think they get it, it becomes obvious. They have no fucking clue.

Speaker 1: 1:45:32

As you said and this is brilliant, if you are somebody from this way of life you and I know and identify with you. Can't not bring that with you. It's who you are. So, in terms of if you're a good human being and you have that ground level authenticity, no matter what else you do, you're going to bring that ground level authenticity with you. And I'll tell you somebody who he's no longer in politics, but he comes to mind when I talk about that and that's Denver Riggleman. Have you met Denver?

Speaker 2: 1:46:18

Yeah, I've met Denver Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:46:20

Yeah, denver is man. I like Denver Riggleman and he's a guy that kind of grew up in the you know that backwoods kind of way of life, who, even though he's held some pretty high-ranking positions, man, he can't shake that authenticity right. There's no way you can polish him up so much that he no longer connects with you right. He's just Denver and you feel it. You feel it, and I think this is what pisses me off. People like that are not embraced by the people who aren't like that when they get to Washington.

Speaker 2: 1:47:13

Yeah, I think that's probably.

Speaker 2: 1:47:17

The whole system is just kind of like set up, you know, to deny people like that the opportunity.

Speaker 2: 1:47:24

I mean, first of all, like it costs a lot of money to run an election, especially at the national level.

Speaker 2: 1:47:31

Things are these days you know you could be running some podunk seat in Bufu, wherever, and then all of a sudden, if the math, you know, necessitates that the other party win that seat, you're going to see millions of dollars dumped into your opponent's coffers just to win, and it's just.

Speaker 2: 1:47:54

You know there's like a lot of things that need to be corrected to make sure that, you know, we really do have adequate representation. The shitty thing is like we've got to win first and then we've got to hope, and that's really all we can do is hope that the people that are in power you know that my worst nightmare is that, like the Democrats win and then they just use, you know, whatever mandate is given to them. You know to kind of like do exactly what Trump is doing, which is only be the president for the 50 percent of the country or 51 percent of the country that voted for that Right and not, you know, take the opportunity to see all of the loopholes and all of the weaknesses that Trump has exploited and brought to the surface that we have in our democracy, and fix those.

Speaker 1: 1:48:58

I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 2: 1:49:00

That is rule number one for politician is is should be at least you're not afraid to lose your job. Yeah, I mean, if you want to take like an oath of allegiance, it should be an allegiance to that principle that you are not afraid to lose your job.

Speaker 1: 1:49:22

Yeah, no, what a horrifying scenario. And while I know, because of just that desire for vengeance on the surface, republicans regaining power and coming back and saying, all right, now, assholes, you know, and approaching it like Trump did, it might appeal on the surface level, but, as you say, when you drop down beneath the surface, it becomes a horrifying scenario that just magnifies everything we're talking about now that we'd like to move on from. If we can't get back to, the Constitution is there for every American citizen and that the president of the United States is there to look after, to use a phrase, every citizen of the United States. If we can't get back to that, we can never exit this loop. It'll just be one okay, now this side's got power and they're shitting all over the other side. Well, now they've got power and they're shitting all over us again. We'll never exit that, and I think that's a great point because it doesn't.

Speaker 1: 1:50:41

When you brought that up, I thought man, who else have I heard talk about that lately? Well, I haven't. Again, we're caught in that cycle of I'm pissed off. So, yeah, if we gain power, punish those assholes. I get it. I get it. Believe me I.

Speaker 2: 1:51:00

There's part of me that I yeah, I think there needs to be accountability. Yes, oh for sure, I need some legislation and things need to be done. I mean, listen, we had one hundred and forty seven members of Congress, republican members of Congress, vote against certifying the 2020 election. And no, I have not forgotten, nor will I ever, because in my mind, they are just as guilty of the violence of that day as any of the individuals that assaulted me, because they did that without a single shred of evidence.

Speaker 2: 1:51:34

If there's one thing that I learned from sitting through all those select committee meetings and I say this to people all the time you know, if you had asked me on January 7th, was Donald Trump morally and ethically responsible for January 6th? I would have said, of course he is. If you had asked me if he was criminally culpable, I would have said well, I don't know those committee hearings. And if you haven't read the report I know it's long, but you can get a CliffsNotes version or just watch some of the episodes Trump's own administration that testified under oath that there was no evidence whatsoever that that election had been rigged or was stolen or that there were any improprieties that would have affected the outcome of the election these 147 members of Congress did was voted not to certify, lending the authority of their office and the credibility of their positions as members of Congress to this notion that the election was stolen, therefore inspiring Americans to vote to attack the Capitol because they think, holy shit, the Democrats are trying to steal the election from us. They have, they've stolen the election and, to me, there has to be accountability. We may have surpassed any type of criminal accountability, but I certainly think that there needs to be legislation to change this idea that you have to be criminally convicted of insurrection to be, you know, prevented from holding office in the country.

Speaker 2: 1:53:30

Like, we all saw what happened that day. Their votes are, you know, set in stone for the rest of eternity. If you voted that way, you're an insurrectionist. You should never hold office in this country, ever again. And that goes with all of the enablers. You know the individuals that push the lies, inspiring Americans. And hey, listen, like, if you're, if you're one of those people that believes the lies, or believe the lies at the time, and still you're a Trump supporter, you know, think about all the Trump supporters, lives that he destroyed. Think about all the people that went to the Capitol that day, outraged and enraged. They, you know, either committed acts of violence or just broke the law and then had their entire lives turned upside down, because the guy that's supposed to be fighting for them is really just fighting for himself. And, like you said earlier, uh, jack, he doesn't do the fighting himself, he gets other people to do it for him.

Speaker 1: 1:54:29

That's it Calls in his goons. Yep, are you familiar with um Pam Hempel? Uh, she, they call her the MAGA granny. She's a trip man.

Speaker 1: 1:54:42

I had her on I don't know a few weeks back and her story was she was there that day. She was charged with trespassing. She got out and when Trump issued the pardons, she was included and she was like I don't want a pardon. I was there. It was wrong. Seeing what it turned into, I do not support it. I think the people who committed crimes should be charged.

Speaker 1: 1:55:17

And she had a hell of a time and she wanted to deny her pardon and she had initially some contact with the Trump administration and they were not at all eager to, you know, pull back her pardon. But she finally I think she's out in Idaho. She finally found a senator who helped her get that through. But it was so obvious to me the reason Trump didn't want that coming back to them, you know, and say, ok, well, you're not pardoned now Because she's an example of accountability, a human being that says I fucked up, right, you got me, and she did her time.

Speaker 1: 1:56:04

And they were wanting to pull her off probation and she told her probation officer I don't want off probation. I want to serve out everything that was handed to me to me. That's the kind of thing that it took in my mind any responsible human being realizing because I think you would agree and maybe not, but I think you would agree that yeah, there were some people that just kind of showed up and were just like let's hold some signs and let's you know, let's say you stole the election and all that shit. But then who then got swept up in all of the bullshit and the energy and and then found themselves amongst, uh, some real radicals and and pan. I mean she. I think she was close to Mid 70s at least right mid 70s she was. She was there to hold a sign.

Speaker 1: 1:57:10

And when you look at like she told me I can. I can never vote again. I can't vote again because my dumb ass went there not understanding what it was all about, but I was guilty. That's what he's done to people. That's what he's done to people but sadly, as you've pointed out, there are people who were held accountable but then had that wiped away. Yeah, and I'm a. I mean, a pardon is a pardon. So I'm assuming those people who had been convicted of felonies I I would assume they can vote again. Is that your understanding?

Speaker 2: 1:57:54

They can own guns, they can do all the things, yeah, and you know you touched on something there you were talking about. You know these people that and I talked about it earlier to my kind of personal thoughts on, like the idea that you know a lot of these people that were there that day were arrested for trespassing, charged with trespassing and convicted, were arrested for trespassing, charged with trespassing and convicted, and that maybe they just got caught up in the moment and the mob mentality, and these are all things that I understand, and I do believe that it's a worthwhile question asking whether or not the federal government should have used the resources to pursue those prosecutions, as opposed to focusing solely on, you know, the violent felonies violent, you know, property destruction, you know felony property destruction maybe spending some of that time pursuing those that orchestrated the event, like Trump, in the immediate aftermath of January 6th, rather than waiting fucking two and a half years. That being said, I think it's really important for people to look at the event now, january 6th, in the totality of that, and why. I believe that those individuals deserved the punishment they got, even if it was just for trespassing.

Speaker 2: 1:59:24

This rally started off at the Ellipse, which, if you've never been to Washington DC. The Ellipse is the big open space just south of the White House and it's located between 16th and 17th Street on Pennsylvania Avenue I'm sorry, on Constitution Avenue. The Capitol building is all the way down off 3rd Street on Constitution Avenue. So when Trump said let's go to the Capitol, these people walked what? 13 blocks, 13 city blocks.

Speaker 2: 2:00:04

All that time you know being able to think about what it is that they're doing, think about their actions, what they might do when they get to the Capitol building. And despite having all this time, you know it wasn't like something that just happened. And next thing, you know there's, like you know, people fighting cops and 13 city blocks that they walked. They got to the Capitol, they watched a group of individuals violently beat police officers and still they continued. In past the police barricades, there was violence happening all around. Yes, it is 100 percent true that not every single person there that day engaged in some type of violent confrontation with law enforcement, but I challenge anyone to tell me truthfully that they had no idea that cops were getting beaten. I can believe that for one second Right.

Speaker 1: 2:01:02

Just from when you watch the footage right and you look into the periphery. I couldn't agree more. It's just not even believable to me that you could be there and not see some stuff that's going on that tells you, wow, this shit has just crossed a line. This is crazy. I can't imagine how you could right. So I would agree with you that anybody using that as part of their explanation is probably not being as forthcoming and as honest as they could be. And you said one thing that really puts this in perspective for me that I hadn't heard before, and that is they walked 13 blocks. Yep, that's a good little walk, and you were right.

Speaker 1: 2:02:09

I can imagine myself being pissed off about something, and by the time I get to the sixth or seventh block, it's like let's go have a beer, right, I'm not pissed off anymore. You know that's a good walk. So I think that crystallizes something for a lot of Americans. And maybe they'd put that all together before and had thought about it, but I had not 13 blocks about it, but I had not Thirteen blocks. So when you say that look, you had a lot of time to think about where you were going and what you were going to do, and so for somebody to start out at a point 13 blocks away and to get there 13 blocks later and then still be willing to engage in violence, the only reasonable thing that comes to my mind is that the further they walked, the more amped up and pissed off they were getting, by choice, because the average person would be like I don't know if it's a good idea or not.

Speaker 2: 2:03:17

I mean, like there's no doubt that, uh, that these types of events attract, you know, interesting types and a lot of the people that are involved in some of the fringe groups that were there. You know the Oath Keepers, crowd Boys and the Three Percenters. You know these are organizations that promote, you know, anti-government sentiment. They're extremist organizations and a lot of their membership is, you know, predisposed to acting violently. I mean that's why they joined these organizations. I mean, if you remember in the 2020, you know Black Lives Matter movement, these were the groups that would go seek out violent confrontations with counter protesters or with protesters that were there. Yes, and that was kind of like what they did. I mean that's really like like the Proud Boys. That's kind of like their. You know their business model is like you know Enrique Tarrio and you know a couple of the guys like at the higher, the highest hierarchy, you know, in the organization. All they're doing is inciting people to go out, commit acts of violence, videotape it, then they post it on their YouTube channel. That encourages more people to join, because you can't go to a rally and beat up protesters unless you're wearing your, you know, laurel Reef gold PB shirt and your little beanie and, you know, maybe like some military-style garb, and so for them, it was just a you know opportunity to make a buck, just a, um, you know opportunity to make a buck, yeah, um, but you know, still, like you, you had these groups that were, you know, embedded in the crowd and use the crowd.

Speaker 2: 2:05:27

I believe it was, you know, intentional, it was a tactic um and storm the capital, um, and you know you could say there were people that got caught up in that, but there were a lot of people that were, you know, just regular Americans that still made that walk for 13 blocks that I would like to thank. You know, from having spoken with a few of them, that they had relatively like level heads on their shoulders, with a few of them that they had relatively like level heads on their shoulders, uh, but still decided that you know, this was a worthy um, uh, you know engagement yeah, I you're right, man, that there's no arguing that you are right.

Speaker 1: 2:06:15

And I should point rumor has it that for anybody who was going to that, that it was easier to find the Oath Keepers than it was the Proud Boys, for the simple fact that Stuart Rhodes was keeping an eye out for them.

Speaker 2: 2:06:34

I found it. It was pretty funny that, like the leadership of those organizations, they weren't anywhere near the Capitol that day. Yeah, nick Attario, nowhere to be found. Stuart Rhodes, he's not going, he's not stupid enough to fucking go to the Capitol. But you know the imbeciles that they employ. You know they were more than happy to, you know, to participate, and a lot of them got 22 years in prison for seditious conspiracy, which is essentially treason, but were commuted. And you know, again, I thought that was going to be an off-road for a lot of people in. You know, watching the president of the United States pardon traitors to the country, yeah, and then call them heroes and like because, listen, you know, not everybody's in the cult and there's a lot of people that just voted for Trump for his economic policies. Maybe they would be, you know, outraged by that.

Speaker 1: 2:07:38

And there was fucking nothing yeah, no, no, there was, there wasn't. And to get into the uh like how, how vulnerable you have to be, for example, regarding uh, stewart rhodes, look, if I'm going to somebody, it's probably not going to be the guy who shot his own fucking eye out, right?

Speaker 2: 2:08:06

It doesn't get any simpler for that. Simpler than that the guy that you're following into combat is not going to be the guy that shot himself in the fucking eye in a you know whatever you're shooting at the range or something else, I mean I mean, it's pathetic.

Speaker 1: 2:08:26

Uh, tario. I don't know as much about enrique that than I do Stuart Rhodes, but I know enough that he comes across to me as an insecure little guy.

Speaker 2: 2:08:49

Am I? I mean, that's kind of my take. I mean, that encounter that went viral or whatever, was pretty much the only face-to-face interaction I'd ever had with him. But to kind of give you a sense of that, I was speaking at an event that happened to be going on in Washington DC the same time as CPAC, which CPAC has kind of become this, I mean, really like a circus for all the trump, you know, maga freaks yeah, freaks is perfect.

Speaker 2: 2:09:23

Yeah, so I guess tario found out that I was speaking and he and this other guy, ivan ranklin um, who's just like a little tiny guy, like, if you watch the video, I I encourage you to get a laugh.

Speaker 2: 2:09:37

I call him a bald-headed bitch and that's pretty much the best description that you could have. But he's, you know, former military claims to be like a former Green Beret and all these other things, right, which you know, whatever, like listen, I have a lot of guys, a lot of friends who serve that say, like, listen, my service does not give me permission to be a piece of shit for the rest of my life after I leave the military, right? So I would say that to you know, ivan Ranklin, like, your service to this country does not give you permission to be a piece of shit and a traitor to the country after you leave the military. But they showed up at the event and all of them are wearing, they've got their little uniforms on, but all of them are wearing body-worn cameras. And then you have, they're flanked by their. You know, I guess you would call them. What are the little kids like Gen Zers that do Instagram pages and TikTok and shit like that.

Speaker 2: 2:10:51

Bring their bodyguards, yeah, influencers or whatever. So they're flanked by these guys and everybody's filming and you know, Tario's like following me and following me and following me and I'm just trying to walk away like dude, I don't want fucking some encounter. This is stupid, I'm not going to be a part of your viral moment. And then he called me a traitor, which struck a nerve, and obviously I responded to that. But the idea is provoke a violent reaction from Mike Fanone, get Mike Fanone to push me or shove me or, you know, maybe punch me in the face and then I'm going to sue him. Yep, and to me and pretty much everybody I grew up with, like the least masculine way to go about solving a dispute is saying I'm going to sue you, you got it, and so you know, it's just like that.

Speaker 2: 2:11:50

That was the moment that I kind of like I was like, ha ha, I got the game, I get the game. And, reekie, like you're not getting your stupid viral moment, like you're a bitch, you're a little clown army or a bunch of bitches, you're never gonna do anything except phone in bomb threats and you know, go on the dark web and dox my family. Um, like you're just, you're not anything more than that, and I do know a little bit about Enrique Tarrio. Enrique Tarrio was a failed drug dealer who became a government informant, and he worked as a paid government informant for quite a lengthy period of time, to include while he was the head of the proud boys he was actually he was actually an informant of the metropolitan police department.

Speaker 2: 2:12:45

You can look up. You know that he was being handled by a former Lieutenant at the metropolitan police department who was later convicted of obstruction to justice for feeding Tario information because that Lieutenant, shane Lamond, was a MAGA sympathizer. But nevertheless, this was a guy who was literally providing information about other members of his organization for his own personal benefit. So that speaks to that's who Enrique Tario is. He is an opportunist. He's trying to make money and he's willing to exploit you know everybody that's around him to do so, kind of like his you know his master, donald Trump.

Speaker 1: 2:13:35

Right, right. No, he has. It's clear to me, and I just about said clear to anybody, but that's obviously not true. I just want it to be true. It's clear to people like you and I that Donald Trump's only allegiance is to Donald Trump. He's not a Republican. He's not a Republican, he's not a Democrat. He's an opportunist like Enrique Tarrio. He will say anything, he will do anything, he will pretend anything that he thinks will position him to benefit in the greatest way. It doesn't matter who it fucks, it doesn't matter who gets hurt, as long as it's good for him. And that that everybody can't see that clearly at this point it's. It tests your understanding of of human behavior.

Speaker 2: 2:14:40

You know, I agree, and, to elaborate on that, like I actually see this administration as being slightly different in some respects than the last administration. You know, the last administration, obviously, there was like a lot of guardrails, like a lot of guardrails. People talk about that. There were people, you know, despite being despicable, human beings in his administration that were at least willing to prevent him from, you know, destroying democracy, right. Those don't exist anymore. It's just a bunch of, yes, men.

Speaker 2: 2:15:10

But I see Trump as like someone who, like holds a grudge in a way that I think most people are just not capable of comprehending, right. And I see, like, I think like he's made a lot of friends outside of this country you know the Saudis, for instance and so I was having a conversation with a buddy of mine the other day and he was talking about the tariffs and he's like, well, it's got to be a good strategy because Trump's losing his own wealth. I'm like, listen, dude, trump's going to be fine. You know, when all this is said and done, the dust settles like Trump's going to. You know he's going to recruit whatever wealth and he's going to get more.

Speaker 2: 2:15:57

Yes, I think, in my humble opinion, a lot of what we're experiencing right now is Donald Trump taking out his anger on America for rejecting him I agree For fucking voting him out of office. Going all the way back to, like, his childhood, like people not accepting him in the real estate community in New York, and all of these different grievances that he has, you know, written down in some fucking you know composition book somewhere and he's just going back you know, line by line. But it's, he doesn't care, he's going to fuck everybody over Everybody.

Speaker 1: 2:16:40

I agree wholeheartedly, and you know when people and they have a point as to what they're talking about. Regarding his dementia and things of that nature, I can tell you one part of his brain that does not suffer a bit. He remembers every fucking slight that he perceives of that anyone has ever done to him. That's just a different part of storage for him. He's not going to forget the number of years between the event and when he seeks, gets his revenge or retribution doesn't matter to him. When the opportunity presents itself, he remembers.

Speaker 1: 2:17:20

Couldn't agree more. Yeah, it's vengeance on America, yep, yeah. And you made a point about the money. Oh, I agree. Look, don't you in your mind think that, in terms of all of the just? If we look at the documents that he took the top secret classified stuff he's provided enough people in different countries with the information that they desperately wanted that if you left him penniless today, he could fly somewhere, set up shop and they're going to make him as wealthy as he's ever been again. I fully believe that. Does that mirror your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 2:18:06

Absolutely. I mean, I'm not in the know in that way, obviously, but it's like if you look at Trump and you understand Trump and you know that he's transactional by nature, then yes, you know everything is for sale to include, you know, our most, you know, classified of information. You know information that would, you know, put American lives at risk. It's all for sale, you know, because he just he's not capable of caring about those people as as individuals, as you know American, you know public servants or you know it just it's just a way to make money.

Speaker 1: 2:18:54

Yeah, yeah, as his entire life has been, as we kind of, because I'm sure you have something else, even if it's just having a cold beer, that you might want to do today. So I'll kind of start winding down here. But just Michael Fanone, just Michael Fanone, if I were in wherever you are located today, if I was there and you had a day where you didn't have a lot of shit to do, we could basically just kind of fuck off. What would I expect to encounter? What might we do in terms of the stuff you usually do?

Speaker 2: 2:19:42

Oh well, the first thing that we're going to do, given that you were in the military, is we're going to drink beer and shoot guns off my back deck, hey say no more, I'm there brother, it's become one of my favorite pastimes. Um, yeah, I mean um, I'm in the woods. You know, I I've got, uh, two coon hounds.

Speaker 2: 2:20:05

So we gotta, nice, we gotta take buddy and harold out um and harold, nice, and then, um, you know, if you got more than a day, we might take a trip down to the Chesapeake Bay and go fishing. That's definitely, that's my happy place, oh yeah. But then you know, like I said, man, at three thirty four o'clock I turn into a soccer mom and you know I'm carting my kids around. But yeah, I love it, man, yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:20:39

You know I'll tell you and you know I'm carting my kids around. But yeah, I love it, man. Yeah, you know I'll tell you and you know what I mean. If somebody's never experienced it before, maybe they do or maybe they don't. But there's nothing like that bellowing of a couple of coonhounds in the middle of the night coming out of the woods.

Speaker 2: 2:20:56

man, that's just a beautiful sound at night coming out of the woods. Man, that's just a beautiful sound, yeah, no, I mean, I got one that buddy's like a mute, but uh, harold, he gets real riled up and, um, I'll, I'll bay, and he'll bay. And then, uh, you know, I like to think that I'm talking to him, or maybe he just thinks I'm talking to him, but they're the best dogs in the world.

Speaker 1: 2:21:15

Oh, yeah, yeah, the the closest we've got four dogs here at the house. Uh, the closest we've got to a coon hound right now is a basset hound and he, like he's very vocal.

Speaker 2: 2:21:26

Yeah, uh, he's a pretty mellow dude when I come back in the next life, I want to be a basset hound yeah, yeah, he.

Speaker 1: 2:21:35

I always joke he maybe one reason he's so happy all the time he always looks like he's about half drunk. You know bloodshot eyes.

Speaker 1: 2:21:47

But yeah, I know that there are a ton of I would say most actually of Democrats who follow me and that's one thing. I've never been shy about it. I realize it turns some people off or they just don't get it, and that's cool. But I've owned guns my entire life. I grew up in a rural community, hunting, fishing and, like I said, sometimes just going out, I mean one of my pastimes. When I was in high school I didn't know it was a pastime, but I might go out with my shotgun, a box of shells, and find an old, dead tree and see how many shells it took to blow it down. You know, just pick a spot at the base and shoot and I get that.

Speaker 1: 2:22:34

That's not something everybody can identify with, but guns, the responsible use of guns, has been a part of my entire life and there's a big difference. Look, I'm all for gun reform on anything that has to do with saving the lives of kids or keeping it out of the hands of assholes like these MAGA folks that just got pardoned, right? No argument for me there. But I've found a lot of joy in life, connected not only through gun ownership but the connections I've formed with other people and the outings that we have. You know it may or may not be about the gun per se, but it seems like that's an integral part of what brings you together. You know we're quail hunting, deer hunting, whatever it may be. If you grow up, I assume, like you did and like I did, it was just a part of life. Right, it wasn't so much a choice. You didn't say I'm going to be interested in guns. You grew up around guns. Is that how it was for you?

Speaker 2: 2:23:53

Yeah, I mean, you know there's just I've been around, like I mean I lived in, you know I lived in inner city Baltimore. I've lived in, you know, inner city Washington DC. I've spent. You know, as soon as I left the police department, I moved as far the hell away from the city as I could not to say that there weren't things about city living that I enjoyed. But this is my home and this is where I like to be and this is, you know.

Speaker 2: 2:24:20

But it's like there are certain Pastimes that people experience that are based off of, you know, just geographic location or life experiences, or even like your socioeconomic you know background, and it's like I just it's hard because I, like you were saying you've got a lot of, like Democratic followers and like when I started speaking out against Trump, like obviously you know that those were the people that you know were willing to listen, but then like to see people get so outraged because, like I enjoy hunting, right, and like you don't know anything about like the motivations behind it and like the you know you don't know what Pittman-Robertson Act is and like how much money that you know hunters and anglers in this country contribute to keeping our national parks pristine and how pretty much all the funding comes from sportsmen, the hunting sports and the shooting sports. And then it's like any other hobby. And then you know it's like I don't know, it's like any other hobby. And if you do it responsibly and you're, you know, a good steward of you know the sport and the environment that you're in, I don't understand why like people would be so vehemently opposed to it and like I mean. I'll give you another example.

Speaker 2: 2:25:57

I was on Adam Kinzinger's sub stack the other day. I said I'd never own an electric car and I've never received so much.

Speaker 1: 2:26:08

I don't fuck up that man.

Speaker 2: 2:26:09

Like why I like you, Mike, you are my hero. And what can I do to convince you to have an electric car? Right? And I'm just like, dude, I've got fucking four kids, an ex-wife fucking two dogs. What electric car are you aware of that's large enough to fucking fit all those people in it? And also, dude, I live out in the middle of nowhere. There's no fucking ev. That's it for me. Stations like I, I I'd have to. I hate to break it to you but like, not everywhere looks exactly like you know your community and like, while that might be incredibly efficient, and if you know a great way, and like, listen, dude, I love the fucking you know the earth. Like I'm a public land hunter, I fucking, um, you know like I am a steward of, I am a, a big proponent of, you know you leave it better than you found it, but I just can't get down right now with the electric vehicle. So don't hate me for it.

Speaker 1: 2:27:26

Right, well, same same thing, dude, I've. I've got um three kids, um wife, four dogs, um, we've got a Ford exhibition. You can't get everybody in anything else, right? And, like you said, um, there's no place for me to plug in around here, right? I mean it's it's straight up snickers bars and uh, gas pumps around this town. That's that's uh, you a Snickers bar and fill your tank and eat the Snickers bar while it's filling up. And in a Ford exhibition it takes a little bit to fill it up.

Speaker 1: 2:28:08

But, like you said, for me it's more of just a matter of practicality. I can't fit everybody in the current electric cars. I can't fit everybody in the current electric cars and mine would just sit in my driveway because after the charge went down, I'd have no place to go to charge it up. And I talked to somebody here a while back that had set up his own charging station at home. It wasn't cheap, it took some money, wasn't cheap, you know it. It it took um so much. So, yeah, that's that's been one of my um, uh, frustrations. I guess it's like look I'm, I'm working tirelessly against this whole Trump regime and MAGA and all that shit, and I, I voted for Joe Biden and I voted for Kamala Harris, but you've got to understand. I was a Republican for over 50 years and grew up in rural America and that's not something you can just strip out of somebody, even when they're making better decisions with the current political environment.

Speaker 2: 2:29:17

Yeah, jack, I just tell people like my response is super simple. It's um, hey, listen, I'll tell you what. Let's save democracy, and then you can get back to hating me for killing, uh, defenseless animals and not wanting to drive a fucking um electric vehicle there you go you know, I would tell you right now.

Speaker 1: 2:29:39

In my refrigerator, at this very moment I just prepped it last night I've got two deer tenderloins marinating in a stainless steel bowl that I'll probably either have tonight or tomorrow night. Now you talk about being a steward. Look, one of the issues we have around here with deer is chronic wasting disease, and that's because of overpopulation of deer. So hunting is a very important aspect from a conservation point of view in limiting things like disease, and I've always been someone who not everybody likes wild game, but I do. I've eaten just about everything that lives in the state of Missouri. Right, I like it. So I consider that being a good steward too. Not only am I taking a role in the conservation of wildlife, but I'm also not tossing it in a ditch somewhere, I'm taking it home and eating, you know whether that's fishing or hunting.

Speaker 2: 2:30:51

You know people just need to better understand the American conservation model. Better understand the American conservation model, like how it is that we, like, are able to maintain so many different species in this country and not have them, you know, extinct because of, you know, overpopulation. You know just our own. You know human, human beings and growth and taking up space and preventing diseases like CWD. Like you just said, hunting really is like the biggest Hunting and deer getting hit by cars oh man, the biggest tools that we have.

Speaker 2: 2:31:36

and I'd much rather as somebody who's constantly getting attacked by deer as I'm driving my car oh shit, I hear you I'd much prefer to hunt uh than I would, you know, spend the rest of my time at mako getting body work done too man, that's it, brother.

Speaker 1: 2:31:55

Uh, the number of people I mean it's on any given day around here, if you get out and go to the grocery store, you're going to run into somebody who just a year, um, and look, there are human fatalities that often result out of that interaction as well. So, um, it's an interplay right Of of all life in. Uh, but again, for those who are listening or watching or who follow me and you're like, yeah, I'm not into that shit at all and I hate that you are, that's fine, that's fine. You're, it's okay that you feel that way. I'm not mad at you for feeling that way, but, um, you know, maybe you might try not being so mad at me for feeling the way I do, um, anything else that, um, you've got going on or that you might want to throw out that I haven't touched on today. Now, you've got me wound up about coming out and drinking beer and hunting and fishing.

Speaker 2: 2:33:10

You're welcome out here any time, man, I would love that I may be out in Kansas in the upcoming week, so I might have to hit you up.

Speaker 1: 2:33:18

Oh dude, listen, you've got a place to stay. Should you come this way? No shit, hit me up, I will. Yeah, yeah, thank you. So any timeline on the movie deal.

Speaker 2: 2:33:36

No, I mean we're through like, uh, I think the second, you know, editing of the script, but I'm pretty excited about it, oh hell yeah, that is exciting.

Speaker 1: 2:33:49

Uh, and look, man, you deserve and it's coming from me, but I I think this is on behalf of so many Americans you deserve all the good shit that comes your way in life. There's no way to. When I look at your J6-related experiences, maybe a lot of people get focused on the actual attack. What I always get focused on is the choice to come speak out, the, the decision to testify. That to me is I'm like that's a fucking man right there. Harry does. That's a fucking man right there. They they're getting death threats Now, like I learned today, your own. You know the police departments didn't want you to do that, but you have the kind of metal that says fuck it, it's the right thing. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that. You know there's no way the nation can ever repay people like you who do the right thing, when there are all of these compelling reasons like your life not to. So, from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

Speaker 2: 2:35:16

I appreciate that, Jack. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 2:35:20

And thanks for having me on there. Absolutely, um, get on with your day, enjoy it. And, uh, I, I, I hope you won't be pissed off when I say let's look at your schedule. When can I come hunt? Because?

Speaker 2: 2:35:33

because I may hit you up brother like uh, we're like ankle deep in uh turkey season right now.

Speaker 1: 2:35:39

Man, yeah, it's nice here, uh, been out early a couple of mornings and man, the old goblin is it's, it's. It's going hot and heavy right now. A lot of horny Tom's out there. All right, brother, listen, thank you, and uh, we'll maybe do this again sometime.

Speaker 2: 2:35:58

I'd love it.

Speaker 1: 2:35:59

Thank you all right, all right, take care, bye, bye.